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Author Topic:   Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5416 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 271 of 302 (316710)
05-31-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
05-31-2006 3:12 PM


Re: Why the default position is as it is
riVeRraT writes:
I Freely admit that my belief in the non-existence of the God/s could be wrong. As I can’t prove 100% their lack of existence it would be dishonest of me to say other wise. Though I firmly and resolutely BELIVE that the God/s do NOT exist, IF I was to come across some evidence that was UNDENIABLE, that proved the existence of the God/s then I would have to re-adjust my world view accordingly.
This is not dogma?
Not in the slightest. This is an open and painfully honest statement of my belief. It’s not written in any book or enshrined by a religious organization as what you HAVE to believe, thus it is not dogma.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminOmni
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 302 (316711)
05-31-2006 8:07 PM


Shhhhantih...Admin request
Randy, Rat--fellas, if we were in a bar, I'd ask you to take it outside: you are both shedding considerably more heat than light.
Please do not protest with finger-pointing, don't justify, and don't reply in this thread.
But do, please, humor an old bear and return to the State of Civility.
Edited by AdminOmni, : added names

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    Trust me.

    Replies to this message:
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    ohnhai
    Member (Idle past 5416 days)
    Posts: 649
    From: Melbourne, Australia
    Joined: 11-17-2004


    Message 273 of 302 (316719)
    05-31-2006 8:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by Larni
    05-31-2006 10:54 AM


    Re: Why the default position is as it is
    Larni writes:
    Is this not the position of the agnostic?
    No. An Agnostic is uncertain as to the existence of the God/s. an Atheist {strong} has no uncertainty as to the existence of the God/s. While its true that an Atheist {strong} can not prove this stance as this would require the proof of a negative (thus requiring knowledge of EVERYTHING) that doesn’t mean it’s an un tenable position. It’s is fair and valid to hold this view as a belief.
    I am certain that the God/s don’t exist. Absolutely certain. I truly and utterly believe this to be the case. However, I freely admit I could be wrong. This stance is not, in the least bit, uncertain, not fuzzy round the edges, and thus not Agnostic.
    Larni writes:
    However my point was that the default position of every human being is that of non-belief in religious doctorine and that we make an active choice by ascribing to a religion. Someone who is not religious only needs to make a chice about religions he has been exposed to.
    I concur. The second half of my post was a more general comment to the thread and not a rebuttal of your stance (sorry for any confusion)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by Larni, posted 05-31-2006 10:54 AM Larni has replied

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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 274 of 302 (316722)
    05-31-2006 9:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 200 by riVeRraT
    05-30-2006 2:23 PM


    Re: On 'isms' and redness
    quote:
    In college they seem to present a case against God.
    What the hell are you talking about?
    I went to a 4-year liberal arts college and never once did any professor ever "make any case against God".
    In fact, in several of my history courses we learned of various religious beliefs, and never once did the professor ever say (or even remotely imply), "and by the way, these are false religions."
    Did you ever go to a secular college, rat, or are you just repeating propaganda again?
    Edited by schrafinator, : kan't sepl

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2006 2:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 275 of 302 (316723)
    05-31-2006 9:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 209 by Parasomnium
    05-30-2006 3:47 PM


    Re: Dogma in college
    quote:
    When a professor in college stands in front of a class, and says "prove God exists" you got dogma.
    Maybe when it happens in a Danish film.
    OMG, ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Fantastic, utterly fantastic.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 209 by Parasomnium, posted 05-30-2006 3:47 PM Parasomnium has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 276 of 302 (316728)
    05-31-2006 9:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 241 by jar
    05-31-2006 10:51 AM


    Re: Well...Yes and No!
    quote:
    I have already signed up to be on CrashFrog's welcoming committe and have a place set for him at the great fish fry and BBQ.
    Can I come too if I bring a triple batch of my grandmother's recipe for potato salad?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 241 by jar, posted 05-31-2006 10:51 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 277 of 302 (316730)
    05-31-2006 9:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 250 by riVeRraT
    05-31-2006 3:20 PM


    Re: Why the default position is as it is
    But to have a belief about an external consciousness you need a Theory of Mind. At 1.5 years you did not have this.
    quote:
    So you've never seen a baby get scared about something that wasn't himself?
    Irrelevant.
    You don't understand what "theory of mind" means.
    In short, it means: "the ability to understand that others have beliefs, desires and intentions that are different from one's own."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

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     Message 293 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:11 AM nator has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 278 of 302 (316733)
    05-31-2006 9:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by riVeRraT
    05-31-2006 3:36 PM


    Re: Dogma in college
    quote:
    But I am saying that school doesn't leave you with much else to believe in.
    Why should they be concerned with telling people what to believe in?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:36 PM riVeRraT has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 279 of 302 (316735)
    05-31-2006 9:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
    05-31-2006 3:44 PM


    Re: Why the default position is as it is
    quote:
    Not being able to believe doesn't make you an atheist.
    Sure it does.
    Everybody is born an Atheist, as I've said before.
    It's only when we are able to absorb cultural messages do we aquire religion and belief in Gods from our families and society at large.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 93 days)
    Posts: 34140
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 280 of 302 (316736)
    05-31-2006 9:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 276 by nator
    05-31-2006 9:27 PM


    Re: Well...Yes and No!
    All Good Atheists welcome in Heaven, didn't you know? We gonna have all the brothers, all the good Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Satanists, Wiccans, Taoists, Mulsims, Jews, Hindus, all the folk that make a great hoedown. It will be a great day, good food, good friends and damn few fundie Christians.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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     Message 283 by sidelined, posted 06-01-2006 3:01 AM jar has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2424 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 281 of 302 (316738)
    05-31-2006 9:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 268 by riVeRraT
    05-31-2006 7:20 PM


    Re: Why the default position is as it is
    quote:
    You can't disbelieve if you can't believe.
    You could be neither a theist, or an atheist.
    OK, then everybody is born an Agnostic?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 268 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 7:20 PM riVeRraT has not replied

    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17918
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 6.7


    Message 282 of 302 (316779)
    06-01-2006 2:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 249 by riVeRraT
    05-31-2006 3:15 PM


    Re: On 'isms' and redness
    quote:
    truth of the dogma?
    What the fuck does that mean?
    Sicne a dogma is a belief it can be true or false. The "the truth of the dogma" means "whether the dogma is true or not". It's prefectly ordinary English.
    quote:
    I think it says exactly what it says.
    Then since it supports my views and contradicts your assertions you should have conceded that I was correct.
    quote:
    I have no idea what this means, does anyone else?
    It means under the definition of atheism we are using there are NO beliefs that an atheist must hold. Therefore under that definition of atheism there cannot be an atheist dogma. Under the definition of atheism as a belief that God does not exist you have one belief but you need to show that it fits the rest of the definition of "dogma". The first word in that definition is "authoritative" - so where is the relevant "authority" ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2006 3:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 295 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2006 10:23 AM PaulK has replied

    sidelined
    Member (Idle past 6162 days)
    Posts: 3435
    From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
    Joined: 08-30-2003


    Message 283 of 302 (316780)
    06-01-2006 3:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 280 by jar
    05-31-2006 9:40 PM


    Re: Well...Yes and No!
    jar
    All Good Atheists welcome in Heaven, didn't you know?
    You better be ready to tear up some powder snow in those heavenly valleys jar. Dress warm and bring some beer.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 280 by jar, posted 05-31-2006 9:40 PM jar has not replied

    Dr Jack
    Member (Idle past 129 days)
    Posts: 3514
    From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
    Joined: 07-14-2003


    Message 284 of 302 (316784)
    06-01-2006 5:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 196 by riVeRraT
    05-30-2006 2:11 PM


    Re: Atheism as a Positive Belief
    Um, where's the problem? We are temporally limited entities, just like toasters, so you can only find us in certain portions of time. The terms we use like "cease to be" come from our very limited means of perceiving time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 196 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2006 2:11 PM riVeRraT has not replied

    Larni
    Member (Idle past 108 days)
    Posts: 4000
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 285 of 302 (316788)
    06-01-2006 8:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 245 by kjsimons
    05-31-2006 11:56 AM


    Re: Why the default position is as it is
    I stand corrected.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by kjsimons, posted 05-31-2006 11:56 AM kjsimons has not replied

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