Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
Shalini
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 308 (315026)
05-24-2006 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by rgb
02-14-2006 2:05 AM


Re: Public Education and the Law
If the IDiots what alternative theories to be presented in classrooms as science, how long will it be before they start pushing for flat-earthism and geocentrism to be taught as alternatives?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by rgb, posted 02-14-2006 2:05 AM rgb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 11:26 PM Shalini has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 308 (315214)
05-25-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by DrJones*
05-18-2006 11:37 PM


Your avatar is as iritating as your gibberish.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by DrJones*, posted 05-18-2006 11:37 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by DrJones*, posted 05-26-2006 4:42 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 308 (315215)
05-26-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by ReverendDG
05-18-2006 11:35 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
i guess this doesn't mean that you think evolution is only supported if there is no god?
There is a God, and it is not supported any futher than creation.
quote:
brace yourself, having multipul meanings for a word doesn't mean that they are all used by people when using the word
Depends on who the people are. If a word has many meanings, some might differ in the things they chose.
quote:
i guess you really think people use doctrine that way? don't kid yourself
your usage is just twisting it, you are just quibbing over a definition no one uses
I consider evolution beyond creation a doctrine. Therefore ..."Something taught; a teaching" is perfectly applicible.
Just because some might want to try to make it sound like the only doctrine and belief is the bible means nothing. That is false.
quote:
what christian heritage, most people don't remotly believe the same things - most founders of this country didn't belong to any church
Jesus. He was the thing most believed in. He isn't remote. Belief in Him is the heritage, and eternal life. This is what we are talking here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ReverendDG, posted 05-18-2006 11:35 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ReverendDG, posted 05-26-2006 1:14 AM simple has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 214 of 308 (315226)
05-26-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by simple
05-26-2006 12:02 AM


Re: Another confused creationist?
There is a God, and it is not supported any futher than creation.
show me then
Depends on who the people are. If a word has many meanings, some might differ in the things they chose.
you shouldn't be able to change a definition of a word suddenly if it deosn't work for you, there should be some agreement
I consider evolution beyond creation a doctrine. Therefore ..."Something taught; a teaching" is perfectly applicible.
Just because some might want to try to make it sound like the only doctrine and belief is the bible means nothing. That is false.
what? that doesn't make any sense, i was getting at that no one uses the definition of "Doctrine" that way anymore - using it is just splitting hairs and making a pointless arguement.
Even if you use doctrine people think of a religious doctrine, because that is how it is used and the argument was made that way that evolution is a belief doctrine - a religious belief doctrine, which it is not
using "Something taught; a teaching" could make anything a doctrine then i could say wittling is a doctrine, teaching someone to dance is a doctrine then. Using "well evolution is a doctrine!,"
well damn well everything is! what kind of argument is that?
Jesus. He was the thing most believed in. He isn't remote. Belief in Him is the heritage, and eternal life. This is what we are talking here.
nice preaching there, but that wasn't even close to what i was saying, historicly most of the founders came from CoE and so did most everyone that founded america - guess what? they wanted to get away from christian domination
He isn't remote.
did i say he was? no i said people didn't remotely believe in the same things.
Belief in Him is the heritage
no the heritage if any is we have the freedom to believe or not believe in him or anything else for that matter, anything else is revisionism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by simple, posted 05-26-2006 12:02 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by simple, posted 05-26-2006 9:30 PM ReverendDG has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 215 of 308 (315238)
05-26-2006 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
05-25-2006 11:52 PM


Your avatar is as iritating as your gibberish.
That is the point of it simple.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by simple, posted 05-25-2006 11:52 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by simple, posted 05-26-2006 9:19 PM DrJones* has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 308 (315503)
05-26-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by DrJones*
05-26-2006 4:42 AM


So, being iritating is the point of it then with you. Thank you for sharing that, doc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by DrJones*, posted 05-26-2006 4:42 AM DrJones* has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 308 (315504)
05-26-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ReverendDG
05-26-2006 1:14 AM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
show me then
OK. He died for us.
quote:
you shouldn't be able to change a definition of a word suddenly if it deosn't work for you, there should be some agreement
If you have a beef with dictionaries, don't take it out on me. Get real.
quote:
i was getting at that no one uses the definition of "Doctrine" that way anymore
So you say. Too bad you and the dictionary can't seem to come to some kind of agreement! Guess you think we ought to take your word above all here? Ha. No.
quote:
well damn well everything is! what kind of argument is that?
One that exposes the silliness of the evolution doctrines, and I like that. A lot.
quote:
historicly most of the founders came from CoE and so did most everyone that founded america - guess what? they wanted to get away from christian domination
They never wanted to get away from JESUS, or salvation. On the contrary.
quote:
i said people didn't remotely believe in the same things
So what???!! People in the US overwhelmingly believe in Jesus! That is a lot of people believing in the same thing. Despite your strange rants.
quote:
no the heritage if any is we have the freedom to believe or not believe in him or anything else for that matter, anything else is revisionism
Not that you opinion is worthless, but it is a minority one, as well as one that omits the will of the majority. The majority vote Jesus. You can vote any way you like. -for that matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ReverendDG, posted 05-26-2006 1:14 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ReverendDG, posted 05-27-2006 2:11 AM simple has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 218 of 308 (315546)
05-27-2006 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by simple
05-26-2006 9:30 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
OK. He died for us.
gee then he's not god now is he? god can not die
If you have a beef with dictionaries, don't take it out on me. Get real.
how about you read what i said instead of being flippent, or can you not make a real arguement?
So you say. Too bad you and the dictionary can't seem to come to some kind of agreement! Guess you think we ought to take your word above all here? Ha. No.
i guess when a dictionary agrees with me that no one uses the definition, then you have no arguement?
One that exposes the silliness of the evolution doctrines, and I like that. A lot.
how does it do that? it just shows that quibbling over definitions is what you have. oh its a doctrine so its wrong! wow nice arguement - thats all you have?
They never wanted to get away from JESUS, or salvation. On the contrary.
do you have any evidence? being that they decided that no religion would control the goverment or allow one religious belief to dictate what everyone else can do shows me that they didn't want christianity to dominate thier lives anymore
So what???!! People in the US overwhelmingly believe in Jesus! That is a lot of people believing in the same thing. Despite your strange rants.
what the hell does that have to do with what i said, you were not reading what i wrote so i repeated it, this part is irrelevent
Not that you opinion is worthless, but it is a minority one, as well as one that omits the will of the majority. The majority vote Jesus. You can vote any way you like. -for that matter.
you need to go read a history book then, the majority is irrelevent in this country thats why we have laws, they don't protect the majority they protect the minority - which is those who believe in what the majority does not, which is a good heritage
if we followed the majority we might as well call this jesusland and be done with it
anyway i'm done with this nonsense, this really isn't going anywhere

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by simple, posted 05-26-2006 9:30 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by simple, posted 05-28-2006 1:33 AM ReverendDG has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 308 (315711)
05-28-2006 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by ReverendDG
05-27-2006 2:11 AM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
gee then he's not god now is he? god can not die
The flesh He came in can, and did. But He is alive and well.
quote:
how about you read what i said instead of being flippent, or can you not make a real arguement?
I don't argue with dictionaries as a rule.
quote:
i guess when a dictionary agrees with me that no one uses the definition, then you have no arguement?
If it agrees with you, it likely also agrees with me. I am not the one with the demonstrated track record here of arguing with dictionaries now am I?
quote:
how does it do that? it just shows that quibbling over definitions is what you have. oh its a doctrine so its wrong! wow nice arguement - thats all you have?
No, that's all I needed with you there.
quote:
do you have any evidence? being that they decided that no religion would control the goverment or allow one religious belief to dictate what everyone else can do shows me that they didn't want christianity to dominate thier lives anymore
The majority believed in Jesus, the evidence is not murky there. Clear as daylight. As for religion we want to get away from, we still want that, including evolution!
quote:
what the hell does that have to do with what i said, you were not reading what i wrote so i repeated it, this part is irrelevent
If you ever figure out what the hell you are talking about, and can make a simple cohesive sentence or two, let us know.
quote:
you need to go read a history book then, the majority is irrelevent in this country ....
Ha. You are a silly scream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ReverendDG, posted 05-27-2006 2:11 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by toff, posted 05-30-2006 7:22 PM simple has replied

toff
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 308 (316380)
05-30-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by simple
05-28-2006 1:33 AM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
how does it do that? it just shows that quibbling over definitions is what you have. oh its a doctrine so its wrong! wow nice arguement - thats all you have?
quote:
No, that's all I needed with you there.
You seem to have missed the point here, whisper. You called evolution a 'doctrine', and then cited the dictionary definition which defines a doctrine as 'something taught'. It was pointed out that this is an archaic usage of the word, which you don't seem concerned about. And that's fine. But if you want to use that archaic usage of the word, then EVERYTHING taught is a doctrine. Math. Reading. History. All doctrines. And in that case, saying that evolution is a doctrine says nothing at all except that it's something that is taught - which it is, obviously.
But you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call evolution a doctrine, implying religious dogma. But then you justify that by citing that doctrine can mean 'something taught'. But that's not how you're using the word when you refer to evolution as a doctrine - and if it IS how you're using the word, then it's useless to point out, because EVERYTHING taught is a doctrine.
quote:
The majority believed in Jesus, the evidence is not murky there. Clear as daylight.
The majority of whom? The founding fathers? If so, that evidence is hardly 'clear as daylight'. Many of the founding fathers were deists, and there is much contention about which of them were Christians, as you no doubt know.
quote:
As for religion we want to get away from, we still want that,
There is nothing in the Constitution or any of the founding documents that religion is something anyone wants to 'get away from'. They merely want it kept out of government. Certainly, you don't want to get away from religion - your Christianity is obviously very important to you, and the last thing you want to do is get away from it.
quote:
including evolution!
Evolution is not a religion. It is an observed fact. Evolutionary theory is also not a religion. It is a scientific theory.
quote:
you need to go read a history book then, the majority is irrelevent in this country ....
quote:
Ha. You are a silly scream.
This flippant response doesn't address the point raised. In many ways, the majority is, indeed, irrelevant. If the majority decided tomorrow that (for example) black people shouldn't have the vote, that majority wouldn't get their way because it would be unconstitutional. That was the point being made - that the constitution (and relevant governmental and judicial procedures) prevents the 'tyranny of the majority'. Certain rights of the minority are protected so that they can't be removed even if the majority wants to do so. In that regard, the majority is, indeed, irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by simple, posted 05-28-2006 1:33 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 8:58 PM toff has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 308 (316402)
05-30-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by toff
05-30-2006 7:22 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
. You called evolution a 'doctrine', and then cited the dictionary definition which defines a doctrine as 'something taught'. It was pointed out that this is an archaic usage of the word, which you don't seem concerned about. And that's fine. But if you want to use that archaic usage of the word, then EVERYTHING taught is a doctrine.
OK, and so? If you want to call creation a doctrine and not evolution that went on before creation a doctrine, it is wrong. Great. My point exactly.
quote:
Math. Reading. History. All doctrines. And in that case, saying that evolution is a doctrine says nothing at all except that it's something that is taught - which it is, obviously.
If you lump evolution in there, I lump creation. It is a two way street, not just your way.
Here is a bible definition that should clear it all up for you.
"1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion. " (king James dictionary)
quote:
The majority of whom? The founding fathers?
The majority of the people. Power to the people.
quote:
There is nothing in the Constitution or any of the founding documents that religion is something anyone wants to 'get away from'. They merely want it kept out of government. Certainly, you don't want to get away from religion - your Christianity is obviously very important to you, and the last thing you want to do is get away from it.
Religion in a sense of one denomination's pet ideas and doctrines. Especially evolution!
quote:
Evolution is not a religion. It is an observed fact. Evolutionary theory is also not a religion. It is a scientific theory.
A fact most Christians agree with as well, but that fact does not include anything beyond creation! Any evoluting statred at or after creation. There had to be something to evolve. Going beyond the garden is absolute religion! Nothing before there was observed at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by toff, posted 05-30-2006 7:22 PM toff has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by toff, posted 05-30-2006 9:14 PM simple has replied

toff
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 308 (316413)
05-30-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by simple
05-30-2006 8:58 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
OK, and so? If you want to call creation a doctrine and not evolution that went on before creation a doctrine, it is wrong. Great. My point exactly.
I'm confused. What evolution went on before creation? Are you talking about the idea that evolution happend and then God stepped in and directly created man? In any case, evolution is a doctrine in the same sense that math and history is a doctrine - it's something taught. Creation is a doctrine in this sense, but it's also a doctrine in the more usual sense - a religious doctrine. Evolution isn't.
quote:
If you lump evolution in there, I lump creation. It is a two way street, not just your way.
Lump it in where? As something taught? Sure (as above), creation is a doctrine in the sense that it's 'something taught', but it's also a religious doctrine, which evolution isn't. By calling evolution a doctrine, you were trying to imply a degree of religiousity to evolution, which isn't correct.
quote:
Here is a bible definition that should clear it all up for you.
"1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion. " (king James dictionary)
That's not a 'bible definition' - it's a dictionary definition. In any case, sure, in that sense evolution is a doctrine, just like math and history. Creation is a doctrine in that sense as well, but also in the sense of it being a religious belief.
quote:
The majority of the people. Power to the people.
The majority of the people at the time of the formation of the US were Christian? Yes, but I don't get your point. So what?
quote:
Religion in a sense of one denomination's pet ideas and doctrines. Especially evolution!
There is no such sense. Evolution is not a 'denomination'. Religion is limited to theistic ideas and beliefs - evolution is not theistic in any way.
quote:
A fact most Christians agree with as well, but that fact does not include anything beyond creation!
I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.
quote:
Any evoluting statred at or after creation. There had to be something to evolve.
Obviously evolution started after there was life - whatever form that life had, and however you believe it got here. You believe it was created by God - science can't make that conclusion. Regardless, once it got here, it began evolving.
quote:
Going beyond the garden is absolute religion! Nothing before there was observed at all.
By 'going beyond the garden' I think you mean Eden? Are you again referring to the idea that evolution occurred before man was created in Eden? I'm a bit unclear here as to what you mean.
However, let me reiterate - there is nothing remotely religious about evolution or evolutionary theory.
Science is not limited to what it observes. It can - and does - observe consequences of things and from those consequences extrapolate what happened. That's what's the core of things like forensic science. Nobody saw Joe kill Fred, but thanks to forensic science we CAN see things like Joe's fingerprints all over the gun, his blood on the floor where Fred hit him, and so forth, that enables us to scientifically conclude that Joe killed Fred. In the same way, science can conclude many things without observing them.
Edited by toff, : Corrections

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 8:58 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 10:45 PM toff has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 308 (316425)
05-30-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by toff
05-30-2006 9:14 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
I'm confused. What evolution went on before creation? Are you talking about the idea that evolution happend and then God stepped in and directly created man?
No. I am saying that all evolving that went on started after God created the world, and man, and animals, and sea life, and so on.
quote:
- it's something taught. Creation is a doctrine in this sense, but it's also a doctrine in the more usual sense - a religious doctrine. Evolution isn't.
Oh but it is, it requires faith.
quote:
By calling evolution a doctrine, you were trying to imply a degree of religiousity to evolution, which isn't correct.
It takes belief, no one observed evolution beyond Adam and Eve did they? No. Not at all. Sorry this is hard for you, but thems the facts.
quote:
That's not a 'bible definition' - it's a dictionary definition. In any case, sure, in that sense evolution is a doctrine, just like math and history.
A BIBLE dictionary. And yes in that sense evolution is a doctrine. Thank you. So is the truth of the bible, but that is a good doctrine. There are other kinds, as the bible denotes.
1Ti 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
quote:
The majority of the people at the time of the formation of the US were Christian? Yes, but I don't get your point. So what?
So read their documents with this in mind. He is the reason for all seasons.
quote:
I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.
The evolving we now see did not exist before things were created, such as all animals, and Adam.
quote:
There is no such sense. Evolution is not a 'denomination'. Religion is limited to theistic ideas and beliefs - evolution is not theistic in any way.
It involves a spirit every bit as much as creation does. You just can't see it.
quote:
Science is not limited to what it observes. It can - and does - observe consequences of things and from those consequences extrapolate what happened. That's what's the core of things like forensic science. Nobody saw Joe kill Fred, but thanks to forensic science we CAN see things like Joe's fingerprints all over the gun, his blood on the floor where Fred hit him, and so forth, that enables us to scientifically conclude that Joe killed Fred. In the same way, science can conclude many things without observing them.
Not things that involve pre creation!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by toff, posted 05-30-2006 9:14 PM toff has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by toff, posted 05-30-2006 10:53 PM simple has not replied

toff
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 308 (316427)
05-30-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by simple
05-30-2006 10:45 PM


Re: Another confused creationist?
quote:
No. I am saying that all evolving that went on started after God created the world, and man, and animals, and sea life, and so on.
It's obvious that all evolving that went on started after life arose, however you believe that life did arise.
quote:
Oh but it is, it requires faith.
No, it isn't, and no, it doesn't. In any case, the definition of religion does not even mention the word faith. Whether faith is involved in acceptence of/belief in evolution is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is a religion.
quote:
It takes belief, no one observed evolution beyond Adam and Eve did they? No. Not at all.
Of course it takes belief - everything does. So what? That doesn't make it religion.
quote:
Sorry this is hard for you, but thems the facts.
Leave out the snide little comments. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion.
quote:
A BIBLE dictionary.
A DICTIONARY. That it's about terms used in the bible doesn't make it the bible; it makes it a dictionary.
quote:
And yes in that sense evolution is a doctrine.
Just as is math, and geography. So what?
quote:
Thank you. So is the truth of the bible, but that is a good doctrine.
It is a matter of opinion whether (a) the bible is truth and (b) whether what it holds is a good doctrine.
quote:
So read their documents with this in mind. He is the reason for all seasons.
Whatever that's supposed to mean.
quote:
The evolving we now see did not exist before things were created, such as all animals, and Adam.
Obviously ALL evolving didn't existe before there was life.
quote:
It involves a spirit every bit as much as creation does. You just can't see it.
No, it doesn't. Adding "you just can't see it" is pretty meaningless and does not support your argument in any way. Invisible aliens live in your house...you just can't see it. See?
Instead of saying "you just can't see it", how about you provide something to support your claims?
quote:
Not things that involve pre creation!
EVERYTHING, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by simple, posted 05-30-2006 10:45 PM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 308 (316446)
05-30-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Shalini
05-24-2006 10:00 PM


Re: Public Education and the Law
If anyone pushes flat earth type ideas it will be pre creation evolutionists. Do you think mindless repetition helps a lost case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Shalini, posted 05-24-2006 10:00 PM Shalini has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024