So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?

We discussed Iraq, one of the largest, least homogenous areas in the Middle east. Now let's look at Kuwait, one of the smallest and most homogenous.Tiny Kuwait would not be a place you would expect Great Britain to spend much time except for one thing. It has a deep water port at the northern end of the Persian Gulf, one that was more secure than the port at Basra. The British were always interested in deep water ports and so Kuwait moved far higher on it's list of interesting places, just as Bahrain was an alternative to the Iranian port of Bushire.The significance of Kuwait increased when Germany announced a Berlin-Baghdad railway that would eventually extend to the port at Kuwait. That changed the situation immediately and Kuwait moved near the top of Great Britians interest list.In 1899 Kuwait became a Protectorate of the British Empire. In 1913 or so, Britain was given a monopoly on exploration and production of oil reserves in Kuwait.Kuwait though made it quite clear that their relationship with Great Britain was no more than political reality. They realized they were small fish surrounded by larger predators and saw the relationship with Great Britain as not by choice, but necessity.You can read more about the history of Kuwait at the map room

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Buz, several points. First all you have provided as usual is bare unsupported asseretions. While I have provided links to the actual documents, correspondence and maps to support my contentions, as usual you have provided no evidence in support of yours. In addition, I have repeated asked that this discussion be limited to from around WWI on. We can start another thread on the earlier history if you want.Please try to stick with the topic and if at all possible, could you consider supporting some of the allegations you make.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The First Gulf war is a subject that deserves a thread of it's own. So far we have not even covered the historical basics that would allow us to discuss it intellegently.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Earlier I discussed Bahrain and Bahrain and Qatar (pronounced similar to cutter but not like guitar) are both culturally and politically linked. Qatar is a penninsula that juts into the Persain Gulf like a thumb. It is flat, barren and mostly covered by sand and gravel, less that 2% of the land being ariable. For most of it's history it had no unified government, the people lived by fishing, pearling and piracy. It did have several harbors, pricipaly, Doha on the eastern coast. One of the families vying for control was the Al-Khalifa and shortly before the start of the 18^th. century they moved to Bahrain. They still maintained some control over the northwest parts of the penninsula, and claimed control over more of it, but in reality left a power vacuum where a series of sheiks arose to claim control only to be overthrown.Sticking out into the Persian Gulf, having several small ports, it was a major piracy problem to the British. Since it seemed to have no economic resources, the only real concern that the British had was strategic, it should not interrupt trade or transit. As we approached the end of the 18^th. century the British decided that the best course was to promote one of the local warlords and establish a government. The British select a local family, Al-Thani, and signed an agreement with him that both supported him as ruler, but also separated and denied any claims to Qatar by the Al-Khalifa clan in Bahrain (remember at the same time Great Britain was also allied with Bahrain).Not much over two years later Sheikh Mohammed Bin Thani died and his son Jasim rose to power. Jasim invited the Ottomans to enter Qatar, and he constantly played the two Great Powers off against one another until 1913 when the Ottomans withdrew realizing how exposed their position was. Jasims succesor was Sheik Abdullah bin Thani, and in 1916 he signed a treaty with the British similar to those in the other areas we've discussed. In return for protection from the Turks, other local arabs, Bahrain and particularly Al-Saud who we have not yet discussed, he agreed that he would have no dealings with any other foriegn power with the express permissions of the British.Before leaving Qatar, I need to note that the Al-Thani family has remained the rulers of Qatar since they were first installed by the British.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that part of the story is very important, but I also realize that we have dealt with just the part from around the beginning of WWI and have taken nearly half the thread without even covering the creation of all of the current nations of the Middle East. There is alot of material to be covered.Would it be possible for you to propose a new topic where you could lead a discussion of the early history?Also, just to add to the workload, I have not tried to address the creation of the current North African nations. In particular, the history of modern Egypt and the part played by France and Great Britain in that area will become essential to understanding the later history of Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. If you could post some of the history of North Africa here in this thread it would be appreciated.I have intentionally held off talking about the Al-Saud, about the clash between France and Great Britian in the Middle East hoping you would first lay the groundwork of North Africa so folk can see it in context.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

IMHO it is not only interesting, it is esential to understand that there is no one uniform driving force in this matter, anymore than there is in any other area. The world of Islam is no more a monolithic structure than the West. The Nations of the Middle East that exist today are mostly the result of Western penmanship, borders drawn on the basis of the interests of France and Great Britain. But we need to realize that France and Great Britain each had their own agenda, decisions were made based on the perceived needs of each power, not based on the peoples of the area itself. So too, during the growth of Islam, needs, alliances and confrontation were often based on the unique needs of the power at the time. Often this meant that Christian West and Muslim east were allied against other Christian and Muslim power structures. It was not simply an issue of Christianity vs Islam, not now, not then.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The area that today is called the United Arab Emirates was at the time we are discussing called Trucial Oman. It had never been a single unified nation but rather a coastal area where various sheiks held some limited local sway and had been held under some conrol and influence by the Portugese, the Omanis (the next nation we will discuss) and the Persians. The two tribes or families that exerted the most local control were the Qawasimis who were primalily a coastal sea-faring family and the Al-Busaids who were an interior bedouin tribe.Around the 1790 the French were beginning to show some interest in the area and the British, to prevent the French from gaining a foothold in what Britain considered its dominite position on the Indian sub-continent, signed a treat with the Al-Busaids. This put Great Britian in direct opposition with the Qawasimis, the sea faring peoples, who then saw all British shipping as fair game. Needless to say, Great Britain did not see things that way, and they dispatched a fleet from Bombay capturing and destroying every Qawasimi vessel, city, town, fort and port, including the Qawasimi holdings and hideouts in Persia itself.Just before the turn of the century, around 1890 or so, Great Britain concluded individual treaties with most of the sheiks in the area where they agreed to have no dealings with any foriegn power other than Great Britain. In return, Great Britain agreed to protect them from foriegn incursion. That became crucial during the period of the rise of Al-Saud, as he bypassed this area totally rather than bring down the ire of the British.The area of Trucial Oman remaind virtually unchanged, no single government, no nation, throughout the period of WWI, WWII and all the way into the 1950s. That is how things remained until Great Britain finally called the Trucial States Council in 1951 meeting in the port city of Dubai and under the chairmanship of the local British political representative.Finally, in 1971 six of the individual "states" met and merged to form the UAE and in 1972 a seventh "state" joined.The importance of Trucial Oman during the period in question was simply that Great Britain added to that area of the coastline that might effect its major concern, shipping and communications between India and England. The secondary and equally important point is that Great Britain also served as a check on the territorial ambitions of Al-Saud which will be discussed later.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There have been a few members that have expressed the idea that this thread was designed to "whitewash the Ottomans" or demonize the West. That can not be further from the actual intent of this thread.The purpose I entended for this thread was and remains, to simply look at the history of the area, to find out why there is a nation of Iraq or Syria or Lebanon or Jordan. How did these nations come into existence? What were the driving forces in their creation?I hope that we have, and that we can continue to, point folk towards the actual history of the area.The picture that develops as anyone looks at the area though, is that religion played almost no part in the creation of these nations and infact, particularly in the case of Iraq, the actual religious and political relationships of the people living in the area was ignored even though it was pointed out at the time that that act would cause future instability. Instead, the needs of outside Great Powers, whether real of fancied, is the apparent force in their creation. Throughout the period what is found is that alliance between the the Islaic peoples of the area with one or more of the Christain Western Great Powers were formed, usually in opposition to another alliance between the Islamic people of an area with one of the other Christian western Great Powers.The story of the Middle East and North Africa as we know them today, as well as the Indian Sub-Continent, is the story of competition between France, Germany, Great Britain and Russia; and then later, of the rise of nationalism withing the Nations that were created by those Great Powers.I believe it is a fascinating story, and that it is important, perhaps essential, for us to understand the world we live in, and to make wise decisions about our own actions in the future.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

As we continue around the Southern shore of the Persian Gulf we come to the area that forms the gateway to the Gulf. Oman borders the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean and was an important port and landing area for the Potuguese in their Indian Spice trade. The local sheiks looked for outside help to reduce their dependency on Portugal, they turned to the British. the British were glad to help if it reduced the Portugese influence in the Indian Sub-Continent and by the mid 1600's Imam Sultan Bin Saif had driven the Portugese out and commercial relations were pretty much through the British east India Company.Things remained pretty much at that level until the French moved into Egypt as was discussed earlier.You need to understand that at this time there were three main trade, communication and transportation routes from India to England.The first was the long sail all the way down the coast of Africa, around the Cape of Good Hope and back up the coast of Africa to England. It was long, slow, hazardous and you also faced the threats involved in trying to run the straight of Madagascar, or detour far out around the island.A second route was down to the Red Sea, inland as far as possible, then tranship across the Suez Penninsula to Egypt. In Egypt you could catch sail again across the Mediterranean and either overland back to England or out into the Atlantic and home.The third route was up the Persian Gulf to Basra or Kuwait, then overland to the Med, or cross country through Turkey. BUT...... there is a major bottleneck in the route up the Persian Gulf, the Straits of Hormus. If you look at the map of the area you can see that the narrow straits between the Gulf of Oman and the Persian Gulf is dominated by whoever controls Musandam Penninsula. Like the thumb of Qatar, that piece of land became essential.None of this was a major issue until France made their entry into Egypt but when that happened, Oman like Qatar, Bahrain, Basra, Kuwait, Egypt itself took on a whole new imporatance.the treaties established with the Omanis was that they were more a real relationship. Oman unlike most of the others retained internal and external control. Oman actually was somewhat of a colonial power itself with colonies from Pakistan south as far an Zanzibar.There was one constant though, and that was the Royal Navy. They were there to support the Omani leaders, as they did in 1913 when Sultan Faisal Bin Turki died without designating an heir. Other families tried to claim leadership and it was only the intervention of the British and the might of the Royal Navy that prevented the regime from being overthrown.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Aden, today known as Yemen, is an old peoples, likely the fabled home of Sheba in the Bible. It sits on the lower southeast corner of the Arabian Penninsula and dominated the eastern entrance to the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. It had long been a transport and commercial hub, particularly between the interior of Arabia and the nations to the south such as Somalia and Djibouti which sit just across the narrow straits.In 1852 the Sultan Tadjoura sold the port city of Obock, Djoubti and all the surrounding lands to France. Shortly thereafter, Djibouti became a French Territory. This put France in a position to dominate both ends of the Read Sea passage, potentially giving the French the capability of closing it to British naval access.As we saw earlier in the message about Egypt and the Suez Canal, this was totally unacceptable to the British who saw maintaining access to all three of the transportation routes, up through the Persian Gulf, through the Red Sea and down around the Cape of Good Hope as essential to maintaining control and commerce throughout the Empire.To counter that percieved threat, Aden, on the northern side of the eastern entrance to the Red Sea became essential.In 1837 a British ship had wrecked off the coast of Aden. It's crew and passengers had been mistreated by the local Arabs, and the British Government had demanded amends be made. The local Sultan agreed to make compensation, and as part, to sell his port and town to the British, however when captain Haines of the Indian Navy arrived the Sultan's son refused to honor the agreement. In response, a naval fleet as well as land forces were dispatch and Aden was captured and annexed to British India in 1839.That gave Great Britain a base on the north shore of the entrance of to the Red Sea and Aden became a major stopover, a recoaling center and a communications hub for the submarine phone and telegraph lines to India, Australia and Africa.Aden remained as part of India until 1936 when it became a separate colony of Great Britain and in 1967 became independant as the Nation of Yemen.AbE: adding a link to the map of the area from the CIA Factbook. Notice how narrow the entrance to the Red Sea is, and that from French Djibouti land based artillery would be able to dominate the passage. Map of areaAlso a Map of the Middle east as it was seen in the mid 1800's. The key point to note on it is that none of the nations we think of are shown on the map. Instead what you see are general areas and then a bunch of smaller places ruled by local powers. Edited by jar, : add map of areaEdited by jar, : No reason given.Edited by jar, : Fix link to map of area

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

So far we have discussed some of the history of the area. Key points have been

• Great Britain and France pretty much divide up North Africa based on existing areas of influence.
• Egypt becomes of great importance when France invades under Napolean.
• France makes an agreement with Egypt to build the Suez Canal.
• Great Britain buys control of the Canal out from under France's nose.
• Great Britain and Russia divide up Persia.
• Great Britain over a period of about 100 years gains control of all the lands bordering the Persian Gulf as well as control of both ends of the Red Sea.
• even though the area that became Iraq had never been one entity, was made up of atleast three distinct ethnic goups, three different religious sects and was supposed to be under the joint control of Great Britain and France, they were combined by the British into one nation.
• while the treaty that was signed with the Turks promised the Kurds an autonomous area and the right one later to hold a referendum on independance, the Turks ignored the treaty and legislated the Kurds out of existence.
• the Great Powers that were also signatory parties to the treaty did not inforce the provisions.
• Great Britain and France directly establish the governments of the nations, deposing those they do not approve of and placing their own choices in control.

That brings us to looking at the state of things on the eve of the Great War and shortly thereafter. Look at the map found here. Notice the ring of Red States.What we have not talked about yet is that great empty area in middle of the Arabian Penninsula, which is where we look next, the other areas that were under direct or indirect French control such as Lebanon and Syria, as well as the area that became known as Palestine. Edited by jar, : fix spalling and add the Kurd reference

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do not let people pull this thread further Off Topic. It is not about Islam, not about terrorism, not about who was at fault, not about nazis or communists.It is a history of the area.If you can contribute to the actual history of the area, please contribute. I am always looking to learn more.But let's stop the off topic discussions.Please.Thank you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please Paul, do not let folk draw this thread Off Topic.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The purposes of the thread were laid out in the first few posts and again in Message 144.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You need to remember that oil was nowhere near as important during the period we are talking about as it is today. Even armies were not mechanized, most folk didn't have cars, the roads weren't there to use them and even most of the world's navies and all trains were still coal fired.By the time of WWI more and more oil powered vehicles were being used, and the Royal Navy was in the process of converting to oil, but the norm for transportation was still mule, horse, wagon and boots.The oil field at Basra was important because it was one of the few known Middle Eastern ones, but the port at Basra was far more important than the oil. Ports, controling those you used and denying your enemies access to them was the key.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion