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Author | Topic: Gods and Demons | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
In the topic Hinduism and Reincarnation in Comparative Religions Faith said:
Faith writes: I would argue that if they are not frauds then they are demonic phenomena, and there's a whole theological framework that makes sense of them from this point of view. Now I have only a vague idea what demonic phenomena is and understand it to be the actions of evil spirits that work against the xian god. What I would like to explore is why does the xian god allow these entities? I would like to approach this from the stand point that the phenomena is indeed a spiritual reality and look at what role they play for the xian god. I would hazard that they are tools of the xian god, that it uses in a purposeful way. Faith and Belief? Edited by Larni, : Spelink
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
What I would like to explore is why does the xian god allow these entities? I would like to approach this fro the stand point that the phenomena is indead a spiritual reality and look at what role they play for the xian god. My own take? When we sin we are acting counter to Gods desire. This is not to say that God wants that we would only do what he tells us but rather that he wants the choices we make to fall within the boundaries of behaviour he finds good for us. For example, He doesn't mind whether I chose to eat a strawberry or a peach. But he finds it objectionable if I get gluttonous and stuff my face with them and learn to peel an orange in my pocket so that I can avoid sharing it. Its not good for me. However he permits us to sin because he has chosen to allow us free will and has chosen to allow a period in which we can make choices he finds objectionable. Similarily, Satan chose (and was allowed to chose) to turn from God ways too. The same goes for demons who, like Satan, are fallen angels (as we are fallen humanity). Satan hates God (as do we by fallen nature) and because we are made in the image and likeness of him he hates (that aspect of) us too. Whereas Gods action is to draw us fallen creatures back to himself so as we can operate within the boundaries he has set up for us, Satans desire is to counter Gods action. He wants all that is bad for us to flourish. Demons are simply agents of Satans work. Soldiers in his army if you like. They are out to accomplish his mission. Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis? The audiobook is even more enjoyable, read as it is by John Cleese. In it, aspects of the work of demons are laid out. A central role of theirs is to find avenues which allow them to tempt us into sin. We all have weaknesses and these weaknesses are exploited by demons. Take pride for instance - that 'Champs-Elysee' of potential avenues for temptation. I could write what I think is a good point in a debate here - something which I feel counters well, the point made by another. Then a 'sniper-poster' interjects and by way of cleverness take the opportunity to slip in an bare insult. Although I recognise that it is a simple sniper attack, I can at times desire to strike back - maybe not by insulting back (although this happens) but to argue the 'case' the sniper has made and 'prove' that the grounds of the insult are fallacious. However, what I am enjoined to do is to present a case. I should expect resistance, counter-argument and insult. So why get upset and want to 'win' the debate? It's not about winning debates its about pointing people to Christ. But I get upset and angry. That's Pride. Pride in what I see as MY argument - as if I could not be mistaken. The demon is the one who pokes at the pride within my 'flesh'. I listen to what it is telling me, decide to go with the flow and strike back. Satan 1 Iano 0. All day everyday they seek to do this. Using any and every weakness in me as entry points. And they will fight as dirty as they have to. If I succeed in rejecting the thought they will retire only to come back with the very same thing again. And again. And again. Until they score a goal. Satan has supernatural power and he can employ this power in other ways than bare, individually-aimed temptation. Remember, his ultimate aim is to keep us turned from God - for as long as we are turned away opportunity for sin abounds and the chances of damnation maintained. One effective way to do this is to present us with as many options as possible for filling the God-shaped hole that everyman possesses in his heart. Man, on the one hand, knows he needs something - but on the other, can't see (because he is blind)that it is God he actually needs. Whilst man is in this state it is relatively easy for Satan to offer all manner of things which man can use to attempt to stuff the hole full. It's like a hunger we have and we can satisfy that hunger with all manner of junk food. For some people it can be sex, career, money, goods (not that there is anything intrinsically bad in these things anymore than there is eating a strawberry). But it can also be a love of nature, science, philosophy, high risk sports (not that there is anything intrinsically wrong in these things either). For others, who may have been brought up /concluded by a search, to think in the direction "God", Satan supplies decoys. False gods. Satan doesn't make them up as such but he tempts man into using mans own ability to decide what constitutes God. He encourages them to do here exactly what man does elsewhere: he attempts to fill for himself, the void that only God can fill for man. It is mans own pride which is always used as the tool and Satan is ever-willing to assist man in this. Like a Judo expert, he uses mans own momentum to throw him off course. He can make a statue weep or a stone cow drink milk - whatever suits him so as to maintain mans gaze in any direction except in Gods direction. And everywhere mans gaze is diverted to are gods man has made. Man looking to man. Man dependant on man. Man not realising he is dependent on God. Satan is subtle and he is clever. Far smarter than we are on our own. He knows not to go overboard, not to push too hard, lest we get the feeling of being pushed. As CS Lewis wrote.
The Screwtape Letters writes: The safest road to Hell is the gradual one ” the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. He will use a deceit which is appropriate to the people he attempts to deceive. He has suitable deceits for everyone in the audience. If milk drinking statues don't do it for you then there is sure to be some other one that will. Many times a day. Why does God allow it? It does fit in with what I know of one aspect of his plan. God is after a free-willed people. People who freely love him and who he can love back. Like any loving relationship, the love cannot be coerced or forcibly extracted. It must be freely given. And in order for this people to be truly free-willed they must have something to chose from. They must have genuine choice. God is totally good, he gives us a conscience which tells us what we ought to do were we only to listen to it. We ought to do that which is right. For free-will to be however, there must be a foil to that. Something which is available to us to counter that 'ought'. Some to tell us what we ought not to do. Temptation is that counter. It doesn't make us do things - it just presents the option to us. And we, being born sinners and thus slaves to sin do what sinners do. decide opposite to our conscience and sin. Temptation in itself isn't a sin. It is not of us afterall. Even Jesus was tempted. God didn't design it this way as such. Its not like we can point the finger at God and say "what kind of good God would make things this way?" All God did was desire to enable a situation where he could express his love to a humanity he chose to create. And in order to do that he had to make free-willed beings, like I say. Whilst he knew what that would entail you can't make a free-willed omelette without the taking the risk of breaking some eggs. Man exercised his choice and the rest, as they say, is history. That this permits a situation whereby people who end up in Heaven are those who allowed God to draw them (indicating their want or choosing to love him) and people who end up in Hell are those who rejected his attempt to draw them to himself (indicating their not wanting him) only goes to point to the mind-bogglingly stunning plan that God has. He doesn't make the situation - yet he uses the situation to achieve expression of who he is: Loving, Just and Holy (His Wrath being holyness expressing what holy is - a just hatred of that which is unholy). Hatred of that which is evil is something we (even in our fallen-ness) can empathise with. Edited by iano, : General tidy up
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
I think if the Xian God existed, He would allow demons to exist in order to tempt humans into straying away from Him.
I had a good discussion at uni a few years ago about the possibility that Jesus was an incarnated demon that God allowed to tempt humans into worshipping a false god. In God's defence I claimed that there are enough clues in the NT to prove that Jesus was no messiah, so come Judgement Day the condemned couldn't complain to God about being misled, they could only complain about being stupid enough to fall for the Jesus hoax. But, in reality, I believe the topic is just another example of why there is no such thing as the Xian God.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I had a good discussion at uni a few years ago about the possibility that Jesus was an incarnated demon that God allowed to tempt humans into worshipping a false god. In God's defence I claimed that there are enough clues in the NT to prove that Jesus was no messiah, so come Judgement Day the condemned couldn't complain to God about being misled, they could only complain about being stupid enough to fall for the Jesus hoax. personally, i don't see what's so darned unclear about the "no other gods in my presence" and "no worshipping images of god." bit. god was pretty specific -- nothing in the image of god, including mortal man, was to be worshipped. no other god was to be worshipped. this whole bit about the trinity is trying to excuse polytheism and idolatry. when the hebrews made the golden calf, the rationalized it and said "this is the god that brought us out of egypt, so it's ok." but it wasn't ok, was it? even though they said it was the same god.
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BMG Member (Idle past 239 days) Posts: 357 From: Southwestern U.S. Joined: |
Hello Brian.
But, in reality, I believe the topic is just another example of why there is no such thing as the Xian God. When you say the "Xian God", do you mean YHWH? Aren't they one and the same? I only ask this because, if this is correct, it slightly throws me off to hear Xian God in place of YHWH.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Brian is an expert in the area - but most secular british people don't use (or I guess would be aware of the term) YHWH. We'd just say Christian or Xian God (and believers just say GOD )
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
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BMG Member (Idle past 239 days) Posts: 357 From: Southwestern U.S. Joined: |
Oh. OK, then.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I would hazard that they are tools of the xian god, that it uses in a purposeful way. I tend to agree, although my Xian bothers and sister at the church are having a hard time accepting this. His ways are not our ways.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As Luther said, the devil is GOD's devil after all. He can't do anything God doesn't let him do.
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Shalini Inactive Member |
I would rather say that man created God in his own image. That's why we have such a vengeful God in the Old Testament.....
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
So is it fair to say that your god lets the demons ply their greasy trade?
This leads me down the familiar path of wondering why your god sets us up for a fall. After all, it knows our actions in the future and so has already experienced our reaction to the demons he has sic'd on us. Seems to me your god is only accomplishing temporal anguish and spiritual torture for us mortals. Surly a god who is timeless and has witnessed all that is and all that there ever will be needs no demons. Is your god not capable of predicting our reactions a priori? Is this a limit to its' omnipotence. Demons just don't make sense if we accept (as I am doing here) an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent xian god.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Xian god is just a short hand.
It means YHWH, but has a more NT feel. I use the phrase to highlight that the xian god is just another god and not conceptually different from any other sky god. Of course its' strictures set it apart in many ways from other more tolerant religions.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Before we start I want to point out that for this thread I accept your gods existance and view it with the eyes of my religious education from school (in the UK we go for the most part to Church of England schools and I was taught Religious Eduction up untill I was 14).
But Faith, what I don't understand is why (being the Ultimate that your god is) your god needs to use them when it already knows the out come of any presure placed on any given human. I see the xian god as knowing every reaction every person will ever make under any circumstances. Your god knows how we will react because (as I understand it) your god exist out side of time and our future is (to your god) a known value. Using demons to prove what your god already knows seems cruel. That can't be your gods intention can it?
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Is it then fair to say that man created demons in his own image?
Are demons a personification of our own spiefullness?
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