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Author Topic:   A Big Bang Misconception
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 18 of 83 (311326)
05-12-2006 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
05-11-2006 11:47 PM


Re: Classical big bang models
He said, what's the north of the North Pole. And from what I gathered from that quip, he's essentially saying, we'll never really know either way, so who cares?
No, he's saying that the question makes no sense. There is no such notion as "north" at the North Pole in the same way that there is no "before" at the singularity.
In the BB model, there was never a moment of "nothing". The universe did not come into being; there was no beginning to the "universe". There is simply a point in the universe where t=0, and all directions from t=0 lead to t>0.
The BB is not about origins, it is about what the universe looks like around t=0. If God created the universe, then the BB is no more the point of creation than tomorrow lunch time in Trafalgar Square. He brought the whole universe into being, which includes all time. Which also makes the use of the past tense "created" rather misleading...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 24 of 83 (311444)
05-12-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
05-12-2006 2:58 PM


Re: Points in space-time
If what Hovind was saying was so fantasitically false, then no one would care about his babble. As it is, its more than evident that what he's saying is hitting home to the scientific community
The scientific community has never even heard of him. It's only those scientists who are daft enough to hang out at sites like this that know of his existence. I'm a scientist AND a Christian (who attends a church which is 99.8% creationist with a congregation of 500) and I had never heard of him before I came to EvC... though perhaps that says more about me than him...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 78 of 83 (347063)
09-06-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
08-31-2006 9:57 AM


Re: This is pointless...
Very briefly visiting... hopefully back properly soon.
When too much matter is gathered in too small a space, then you get a black hole.
Sometimes, not always. To get a black hole you need to have sufficient matter concentrated within a volume, surrounded by space of much lower density, usually vacuum. Even then, there are several requirements. This is not the situation with the early universe. There you have uniform density of matter throughout space. These two situations give rise to wholly different space-time solutions.
As Chirop very rightly said in answer to the original question (what force was powerful to overtake all that gravity in order to get the universe to spread out?) it's just General Relativity. GR is non-linear. That means that you cannot extrapolate one situation and hope to get anything resembling some other situation. That's what makes exploring GR so exciting... you never know what you are going to find.
Also, be careful of thinking too three-dimensionally. GR is a 4d theory and only really makes sense when viewed in 4d, especially the dynamics of the big bang/early universe. Our everyday idea of gravitation as gravity - the force between massive objects - does not extrapolate well up to the universe as a whole.
I have a feeling the explanation is going to involve inflation
No, not at all. Inflation is merely there as a suggested way of explaining some residual oddities. The Big Bang is entirely GR where-as inflation is GR+QFT, venturing into semi-classical gravity.
There was no solid matter to spin at the time of the big bang
Just as an aside, you don't need solid matter to have angular momentum. Space-time itself can posses ang mom. The Kerr solution is an entire universe that spins, but has no mass. Very non-Machian.
Will keep an eye out for any replies but rapid responses can't be promised... sorry.

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 Message 71 by Percy, posted 08-31-2006 9:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-06-2006 6:39 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 80 of 83 (347088)
09-06-2006 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
09-06-2006 6:39 PM


Re: This is pointless...
And a spinning singularity is a possibility, too, I assume?
Yes. We usually regard the singularity of the Kerr solution (it's a black hole) as the source of the ang mom. But the singularity itself is very weird: it's in the shape of a ring. However, if you pass through the ring, you end up somwhere different than if you just go round the outside! You have to go round twice to get back to where you started from
My mention of the absence of solid matter...
Ahh, yes, I see now.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 8:21 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 82 of 83 (347212)
09-07-2006 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kuresu
09-06-2006 8:21 PM


Re: This is pointless...
any relation to the blackhole type that could hypothetically be used for wormhole travel?
OT here. If you or someone wants to start a thread on a black hole q&a then I probably won't be able to resist putting some time in.
But for now: yes it is related but not because of the ring nature of the singularity, but becasue of the dual "charges" of the black hole: "mass" and ang. mom. - yes, I know I said the Kerr solution has zero mass, but this is a different "mass"

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