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Author Topic:   He with closed mouth gathers no foot.
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 1 of 13 (307716)
04-29-2006 1:17 PM


{See message 13 for two previous topics on this same theme. - Adminnemooseus}
A few months or so back I watched the Charlie Rose show where it had Jamews D Watson and Edward O. Wilson talking about Darwin, opposition to Evolution, and intelligent design. There is already a thread about this show, but I just want to add my 2 cents into the fray.
In this show, Watson made the claim that he knew only one serious scientist who believed in a personal God who answers our prayers and interfers with our lives and aware of our existence. Edward O. Wilson replied that he didn't know a one, though later he did admit that He knew Francis Collins, who Watson said was a Believer in such a personal God and still was a serious sceintist.
Watson also made the claim that Darwin was the most important person to have ever lived. It made me think of religious overtones, to say the least, but I continued to listen.
Then he made the statement that his book and Edward's book about Darwin where two versions of their Bible. Edward replied "The only difference is that we didn't try to rewrite Darwin" with a grin. He also said "We didn't hold any councils to decide what was true and what wasn't true" Which is true in a sense, if one looks at the council of Nicea (which wans't about Christ's deity as much as if he and God the father where the same being yet two persons, which was rivaled by arianism, which claimed otherwise)
James D. Watson said another time "Whereas the Bible has been rewritten..."
Now if you want to say these kinds of things on Television, then you can proceed. We have freedom of speech in America, which is a great thing. But, just being Devil's advocate (Hehe)If you are living in a nation who has a 51-82 or so percentage of people that dont believe in darwinian evolution, and you want to change that and show them there is no conflict between religion and science (as my good boddy Jar has said to me on this forum)You dont go on National TV In the United States and claim the Bible has been rewritten (majority of Americans are Christians, and many are Jews.), that Darwin was the most important person who ever lived, That the majority of true sceintists dont believe in a personal God, and that Books about Darwin are your Bible! You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I think they may have put their foot in their mouth.
Their attitude sems to reinforce Ken Ham's claims that Evolution is a religion (LOL)You can just see that aussie grinning when this happened. Now more Americans will see sceintists as non-religious. More will believe Ken ham's claims that Evolution is a religion and reject it, and more and more will lose faith in science. We already have enough problems trying to get more students to take careers in science. That just might be hampered.
Now to be fare, Wilson wants to reach out to the religious community and is writing a book about faith and science. But if I was wanting to reach out, I wouldn't attack one of their religious books (Hebrew Bible/Christian Bible)on live TV.
Now these statements dont make evolution wrong scientifically (Though I have some doubts about the whole enchilada of the theory of evolution)but it makes the average American wonder if evolution might also have some religious presence stuck to it.
I wont have time to debate this much, but both creos ands evos are more than abliged to debate one another. If you critique me, I wont be upset, but if you do, or if you critique others, try to be respectful.
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-05-2006 04:08 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 04-29-2006 3:28 PM LudoRephaim has replied
 Message 7 by anglagard, posted 04-29-2006 3:36 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 13 (307735)
04-29-2006 2:07 PM


Topic Moved
Topic moved to Coffee House since it is old news.

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 3 of 13 (307736)
04-29-2006 2:07 PM


Thread moved here from the In The News (Creation/Evolution only) forum.

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 4 of 13 (307745)
04-29-2006 2:49 PM


Sorry for posting it in the wrong thread
Okay, anybody want to comment?

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 13 (307767)
04-29-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
04-29-2006 1:17 PM


Hello, Ludo.
I'm afraid that I didn't see the show in question, so I am not likely to have an informed opinion on how these two gentlemen presented themselves. It is possible that Watson and Wilson have beliefs that can be non-trivially characterized as "religious", and it may be that atheism and the theory of evolution is an important part of their "religion". However, nothing in your post itself strikes me as religious sentiment.
Let us take the statements you wrote in bold:
quote:
You dont go on National TV In the United States and claim the Bible has been rewritten (majority of Americans are Christians, and many are Jews.), that Darwin was the most important person who ever lived, That the majority of true sceintists dont believe in a personal God, and that Books about Darwin are your Bible!
I see two statements of fact (which may or may not be accurate), a personal opinion about the accomplishments of a famous figure in history, and what is clearly a joke made in the context of a discussion about religious beliefs.
Perhaps it was how these two gentlemen presented themselves during the show; nothing in these statements themselves indicate to me any religious sentiment.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-29-2006 1:17 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-29-2006 3:31 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 6 of 13 (307769)
04-29-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
04-29-2006 3:28 PM


Top of the morning Chirp
I dont have much time on this, but I'm glad you responded. I hope others come soon.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 04-29-2006 3:28 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 7 of 13 (307773)
04-29-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
04-29-2006 1:17 PM


There are other places for a foot besides a mouth
In this show, Watson made the claim that he knew only one serious scientist who believed in a personal God who answers our prayers and interfers with our lives and aware of our existence. Edward O. Wilson replied that he didn't know a one, though later he did admit that He knew Francis Collins, who Watson said was a Believer in such a personal God and still was a serious sceintist.
Obviously neither Watson nor Wilson have ever been to the Lutheran Church (or evidently any other church) in Los Alamos, New Mexico. It is full of serious scientists (it is LASL after all, where the bomb was created) that attend regularly.
Watson also made the claim that Darwin was the most important person to have ever lived
He would be the most important person that ever lived to some biologists including those that would not refer to Jesus as a person.
"We didn't hold any councils to decide what was true and what wasn't true"
Actually this statement is misleading. Peer review, while not a formal council, is an important aspect of science.
Which is true in a sense, if one looks at the council of Nicea
Peer review, evidently, is also an important aspect of practicing Christianity
You dont go on National TV In the United States and claim the Bible has been rewritten (majority of Americans are Christians, and many are Jews.), that Darwin was the most important person who ever lived, That the majority of true sceintists dont believe in a personal God, and that Books about Darwin are your Bible!
I agree to a point, such statements are obvious tactical errors in the political realm. However, I understand the frustration one must feel when psudo-Christians attack science and attempt to politicize Christianity.
I find it interesting that when the given shoe is on the other foot, many so-called Christians find no problem in telling anyone they are going to hell if they don't belive in the exact same god, in the exact same way, and attend the exact same church as they do. They are too stupid to know that they have placed themselves above God by declaring who is saved. By damning others they have damned themselves according to their own commandments.
Speaking of shoes, the above damning has happened to me for the sin of being a Panthiest and it has happened to my wife for the sin of being a Catholic. My daughter, who attended the Baptist church with my blessing, was turned into an athiest by them because of their fear before love sermons and attacks upon science.
In comparison, the blunders of Watson and Wilson in not pandering to the sensitivities of the self-righteous seem insignificant IMHO.
Their attitude sems to reinforce Ken Ham's claims that Evolution is a religion
Ken Ham dosen't know squat about science or religion or he would have never said anything so perposterous. In 100 years, Darwin will still be famous, may even still be on the 10 pound note. Ken Ham will be a footnote in a dissertation on the Psycopathology of Psudo-Christian Fanaticism.
(Though I have some doubts about the whole enchilada of the theory of evolution)
I have no doubt concerning the overall truth of evolution, but then I have a degree in geological engineering that I don't consider based upon lies. I hope you can see why this tactical error appears insignificant by comparison despite the appearance of some antievolution bias on your part.
If you critique me, I wont be upset, but if you do, or if you critique others, try to be respectful.
Will try, but not easy in cases where someone proclaims themself God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-29-2006 1:17 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-01-2006 1:56 PM anglagard has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 8 of 13 (308235)
05-01-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by anglagard
04-29-2006 3:36 PM


The rear? LMAO
Cant reply to all your stuff now, but I have to ask: What does IMHO stand for?
anglagard writes:
Will try, but not easy in cases where someone proclaims themselves God.
Oh shucks! I was wanting to call myself Zeus !
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-01-2006 03:36 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by anglagard, posted 04-29-2006 3:36 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 05-01-2006 9:13 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 13 (308325)
05-01-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by LudoRephaim
05-01-2006 1:56 PM


quote:
What does IMHO stand for?
In my honest opinion.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-01-2006 1:56 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 9:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 11 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-02-2006 11:32 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 13 (308328)
05-01-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
05-01-2006 9:13 PM


Or In My Humble Opinion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 05-01-2006 9:13 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-02-2006 11:33 AM jar has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 11 of 13 (308476)
05-02-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
05-01-2006 9:13 PM


Thanks Chirp
You dont mind if I call you Chrip? It's a lot easier to remember and quicker to write down LOL

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 05-01-2006 9:13 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 12 of 13 (308477)
05-02-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
05-01-2006 9:23 PM


Thanks Jar
BTW: what happened to your original avatar? It was great! I like Orangutans.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 9:23 PM jar has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 13 of 13 (309448)
05-05-2006 4:05 PM


Previous topics on the same theme
Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?, started 12/15/05 and now closed at 298 messages.
The sequel - For percy: setting the record straight on Charlie Rose interview, still open and currently at message 231.
Adminnemooseus

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