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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 172 (305983)
04-22-2006 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by GDR
04-22-2006 4:31 PM


Re: Going back to the OP
I have to agree with GDR here. What you will be judged on is what you've been given.
Worthy - a life that God deems acceptable. There isn't necessarily a set amount of "good" that you have to do (um, this is a case by case judgement, remember?) God looks at your life and judges it (he's not a statistical analysist, He's a Divine Judge. Just live out the faith as it is supposed to be lived out an you don't have to worry about getting x hours of good works (a numerical concept here is abusrd).
As far as Matthew is concerned. The their situation is dependant on how they lived their lives not what knowledge they posessed or believed in.
Further iano, define "faith" because I think we're disagreeing what the term means. Faith is the deposit of teachings and practices that come from Christ's teachings (and the supernatural ability to believe them). "Works" is applying these teachings to life.
Besides, where do you get the notion that faith alone saves? Who told you that? Who has the right to authoratively teach in Christ's name (not just sharing the Gospel, but interperting it correctly - there apparently was a source in Acts - the Apostles, Paul, and those appointed by them).
Also, check these out:
The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.
James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.
The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.
James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 04:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6437 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 152 of 172 (305987)
04-22-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
04-22-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Going back to the OP
quote:
James says you must have faith and works
No he doesn't. He says "faith without works is dead" If there are no works then the faith is dead.

James 2:24 (KJV):
quote:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Faith and works are separate things, according to James. A man could have faith only, but he would not be justified. It is by works he is justified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 6:25 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 153 of 172 (305988)
04-22-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by smak_84
04-22-2006 5:14 PM


I walk the line
Just a point of note Smak. When responding to me, say, then you need to reply to the post I sent you. I won't necessarily see your response if you post to me via anothers post.
Worthy - a life that God deems acceptable. There isn't necessarily a set amount of "good" that you have to do (um, this is a case by case judgement, remember?) God looks at your life and judges it (he's not a statistical analysist, He's a Divine Judge. Just live out the faith as it is supposed to be lived out an you don't have to worry about getting x hours of good works (a numerical concept here is absurd).
Whichever way he decides it seems apparent that he will find one persons life worthy and anothers unworthy. There is a crossover point. If what we do matters (lets forgoe the term 'works' so as to rid ourselves of the notion that this is measured in hours spent doing good things) then our salvation depends (in part) on us doing them (whatever they are) sufficiently so as to cross the line. If we don't do them sufficiently then we won't.
That is not to say that we know what is sufficient. We can't - we are not God. All we can do it to live out the faith and hope we've done enough to cross the line.
But a line there must be for it to be possible to us to cross or fall short of it on the basis (all other things being equal)of our own doing.
Do you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 5:14 PM smak_84 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 6:21 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 172 (305996)
04-22-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by smak_84
04-22-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Going back to the OP
And there I was putting my faith in you. I thought you were going to deal with the problem in the OP. But it seems that this is going to become a general discussion on salvation by f+w.
Can we spend a while dealing with the OP? We can deal with general f+w later. In dealing with your post now I would for instance note that 5 of the verses you placed don't mention works in relation to salvation. I have no problem with being exhorted and being expected to live according to his will: which means that choices I make and things I do are very important. They just aren't important in relation to my final destination (greater/lesser in the kingdom of God by works?)
You can see how drift occurs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 5:14 PM smak_84 has not replied

  
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 172 (306003)
04-22-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by iano
04-22-2006 5:51 PM


Re: I walk the line
I agree...there's a line somewhere.
But I don't think it's necessarily measured in microseconds as has been thrown about in the thread.
And which scripture references don't refer to works in references to salvation?
And please define faith and works so I can see if ambiguity of language is hanging us up.
This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 05:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 5:51 PM iano has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 172 (306004)
04-22-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by DeclinetoState
04-22-2006 5:46 PM


Going back to the OP after this DTS
The Faith alone positon holds that works WILL be a consequence of saving faith. God takes up residence in a believer on his conversion and works in the believer to will (desire) and to act according to his (Gods good purpose). Works as a consequence of God acting from within.
A person who claims to have faith but has not the works to show for it, has not God acting from within. If he hasn't then he is not a believer. His faith is dead.
Salvation by faith alone > works a consequence of that faith. Separate things but umbilically (not unbiblically ) tied together
That would be my general approach to those passages. But could we stick to the OP?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by DeclinetoState, posted 04-22-2006 5:46 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 6:44 PM iano has replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6437 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 157 of 172 (306005)
04-22-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
04-22-2006 2:26 PM


Sorry for making another reply
Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread, but at James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. I found this:
Wesley's Notes on James
2:24 Ye see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only - St. Paul, on the other band, declares, A man is justified by faith, and not by works, Rom 3:28. And yet there is no contradiction between the apostles: because, They do not speak of the same faith: St. Paul speaking of living faith; St. James here, of dead faith. They do not speak of the same works: St. Paul speaking of works antecedent to faith; St. James, of works subsequent to it.
What Wesley is saying here is . . . I have no idea what he's saying. I doubt he did either. I don't know where he got the idea that James was speaking of "dead faith" vs. Paul's "living faith," or where he got the idea Paul was speaking of works prior to faith while James was writing of works that came after faith. It seems that James said you had to have both, whereas Paul said faith alone was sufficient.

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smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 172 (306009)
04-22-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
04-22-2006 6:25 PM


Re: Going back to the OP after this DTS
As far as the OP is concerned, I'll have to agree with example 2. We're judged on our conduct - our adherence/disobedience, given what we're given. Essential to this point is the discussion on faith and works.
As far as faith and works tied together...sure if you're living out the faith that is within you. You still need to allow for free will in this situation. Just because God takes up residence within you (and I do not deny this fact) doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot still reject his love.
There are once passonate Christians who have defected, you see.
So if you have faith, you have the light shining in the darkness, you know the way to go...but you still need to pickup your feet and walk to the light (this is still dependant on your cooperation with the Divine plan - just because he dwells within you doesn't mean he takes away your free will...you're not perfected yet).
So back to the OP: we're judged on our adherence to the faith we recieve, believe, and execute (this is adherence to what Christianity objectivly teaches, and not someone's opinion of what it teaches).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 6:25 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 7:09 PM smak_84 has replied

  
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 172 (306010)
04-22-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by DeclinetoState
04-22-2006 6:25 PM


Re: Sorry for making another reply
What authority does Wesley have to interpert scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by DeclinetoState, posted 04-22-2006 6:25 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 160 of 172 (306011)
04-22-2006 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by smak_84
04-22-2006 6:21 PM


Walk the line
I agree...there's a line somewhere.
Fine. It seems inescapable to me. As does the notion that if worthiness can differ unto salvation/damnation the worthiness can differ between people on either side of the divide. Hitler we might presume is in real trouble. He seems to have done just about everything in the book that would add to his unworthiness. I'm sure he did worthy things at times but all things added up (however they are) then then his goose is likely truly cooked. If we can't say that for sure then one would have to wonder about that wide gate that many will follow unto destruction.
If you agree on that then we have grades of unworthiness and thus worthiness. Do you agree with this thinking?
And which scripture references don't refer to works in references to salvation?
The ones that mention work, reward etc but don't mention salvation or justification or such thing.
And please define faith and works so I can see if ambiguity of language is hanging us up
There are different ways to define faith depending on ones position.
Faith when not a believer. Not sure what to make of this. "I believe in God and have faith I can live as I like and he will save me in the end" seems pretty useless. But there may be aspects of God given faith aimed at leading a person to Christ
Faith on the point of conversion. The God given ability to be able to turn to him, believe he exists and believe one is a hopeless sinner in need of what his son did in order to recieve his salvation
Faith after conversion: can be seen as a highway down which God sends belief and trust in himself to the believer. We need God to fill us up as it were and when we say I have faith in God then it means I believe in him, trust him. Strong faith = wide bandwidth as it were

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 161 of 172 (306014)
04-22-2006 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by smak_84
04-22-2006 6:44 PM


Free will does affect level of adherance
As far as faith and works tied together...sure if you're living out the faith that is within you. You still need to allow for free will in this situation. Just because God takes up residence within you (and I do not deny this fact) doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot still reject his love.
I do allow for free will also. Exercise of free will will affect the level of adherance to the unmistakable style of life exhorted throughout the epistles. The standard is high. Impossible for anyone to live all day, every day, every year of their life. That much we might find agreement on.
Presumably in your view the greater the adherance, the further above the worthiness cut off point you will land - again backed up by greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven possibly.
So back to the OP: we're judged on our adherence to the faith we recieve, believe, and execute (this is adherence to what Christianity objectivly teaches, and not someone's opinion of what it teaches).
Back we shall go. But maybe you'd pop a quick clarification next post on your view on the "what Christianity objectively teaches not opinion" bit. Not for OT dicussion - just for background
This message has been edited by iano, 23-Apr-2006 12:12 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 6:44 PM smak_84 has replied

Replies to this message:
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smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 172 (306015)
04-22-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by iano
04-22-2006 7:09 PM


Re: Free will does affect level of adherance
There seems to be many, many scattered opinions about what the Bible says (Satan's obviously at work here). Who has the authority to teach as the Apostles did (to interpert things correctly, without a doubt), and how can we identify this source? Check out 2 Peter for talk about private interpertation, and why it cannot be done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 7:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 7:56 PM smak_84 has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 172 (306016)
04-22-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by smak_84
04-22-2006 7:32 PM


O torah T
I wouldn't say its only satan at work. Satan needs sinners to carry out his work afterall...
2 peter where? I don't see any that specific.
This message has been edited by iano, 23-Apr-2006 12:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 172 (306039)
04-22-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
04-22-2006 7:56 PM


Re: O torah T
2 Peter 1:20, "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpertation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."
How do we know for sure who these people are? Seeing as how many who claim this contradict each other, who are we to believe? Many of these people who contradict each other are good Christians. Who decides matters of faith and morals when we have a question -- like they did with circumcision in Acts? Certainly God didn't leave his Church running without a source for these teachings? He also said that the gates of the neatherworld would not prevail against His Church...so then His church would've always existed from the beginning of Christianity.
"Behold I am with you till the end of the age." Where is the Church that he is always with? Christianity was unified for hundreds of years (with small Gnostic groups popping up here and there, but nothing major). The Church that Christ established has got to still be around, still guarding the same teachings that the early Christians were entrusted with by Christ. However, which Church would this be?
This is what I mean by 2 Peter's passage.
This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 10:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 7:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by iano, posted 04-23-2006 4:53 AM smak_84 has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 165 of 172 (306043)
04-22-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
04-22-2006 7:56 PM


Re: O torah T
I could be wrong, but I think he might be refering to this passage too:
I Peter 4:18 NIV writes:
If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
Some people interpet this to mean that Christians can just barely scrape into heaven, as in "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." Others interpet it to mean that a Christian shouldn't be surprised when they suffer for Christ. Here's a wide range of various interpretations to examine.
One could also check out Proverbs 11:31 for where this original passage came from.
Personally, I think its kind of incoporating both concepts.
Although I do believe that Christians should not be surprised if they are persecuted for believing, I find the reference to the "ungodly" and "sinners" within this specific context to be kind of non-sensical.
If the phrase "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved" is refering to Christians undergoing persecution for Christ's name, then why would the question "what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" be asked at all, especially since they are apparently not undergoing persecution for Christ's name?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-23-2006 12:53 AM

This message is a reply to:
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