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Author | Topic: quantum evolution | |||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
This idea has come up on other threads, but seemed like a good idea for a thread all on it's own. It seems the concept of mutations being influenced by quantum mechanics and interacting perhaps with consciousness, or perhaps with the environment informationally, is picking up a little steam. WK linked to some papers discussing this idea related to adaptive mutations.
My question is whether this is real science, has merit, etc,...? Obviously, I think it does. Unfortunately, I will not likely be able to respond until March 9th (just in case anyone wonders).
Abstract The principle that mutations occur randomly with respect to the direction of evolutionary change has been challenged by the phenomenon of adaptive mutations. There is currently no entirely satisfactory theory to account for how a cell can selectively mutate certain genes in response to environmental signals. However, spontaneous mutations are initiated by quantum events such as the shift of a single proton (hydrogen atom) from one site to an adjacent one. We consider here the wave function describing the quantum state of the genome as being in a coherent linear superposition of states describing both the shifted and unshifted protons. Shortened Link The theory of quantum evolution is a radical new take on how mutations in DNA occur. Basically the theory postulates that DNA molecules are in fact macroscopic quantum objects that undergo quantum interference. It is spearheaded by Johnjoe McFadden, a professor in the UK and makes for an interesting read. Here is a brief overview of the main ideas of the theory. He also has some interesting ideas about a possible interaction between electromagnetic fields and consciousness. This Blog has Moved to NovaSpivack.com: Quantum Evolution -- A Radical Theory
Profesor Anton Zeillinger's group in Vienna have recently demonstrated that the fullerene molecule, composed of 60 carbon atoms (the famous ”buckyball’), can pass through two slits simultaneously. Few physicists doubt that as the technology advances, bigger and more complex systems will be shown to inhabit the quantum world. Fullerene molecules are spheres with a diameter similar to that of the DNA double helix. If fullerene can enter the quantum multiverse then DNA may do the same. http://www.surrey.ac.uk/qe/O3.htm This message has been edited by randman, 02-27-2006 03:14 PM This message has been edited by Admin, 02-27-2006 03:33 PM
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
I will not likely be able to respond until March 9th
My current inclination is to promote this (reluctantly) on March 9th. When you are ready to discuss it, indicate by posting a new message to this thread. My reluctance is because I see little of interest here. I believe McFadden to be presenting speculative hypotheses which are unlikely to receive the empirical support that would be needed for them to become accepted science. However I am inclined to promote the topic so as to allow you the opportunity to make the case that there is more going on here than I suspect. I welcome comments from other admins on whether this should be promoted earlier, or whether we should close it without promotion.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
?
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
I was waiting for your indication that you are ready to continue. I'll take that post as such an indication.
To comment on moderation procedures or respond to admin messages:
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
I would find it very unlikely.
The self-energy of such molecules is more than sufficient to destroy any meaningful superposition. Although Buckminsterfullerene can be shown to have an interference pattern, it would be difficult to have it exhibit cat states* or any other truly quantum mechanical features. However my main objection is that superposition would be nigh on impossible to achieve for actual chemical configurations. It's only observed for Energy, spin, position, e.t.c. of particles. Not chemical configurations of entire molecules. The other idea that is subtly implied in the article is that collapse to a definite state can be willed or chosen, which is certainly not the case.The collapse is totally random, that’s why we have probabilities in quantum mechanics. *A Cat state is when a particle is in a state which is a superposition of two other states that would be diametric opposites classically.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
There is currently no entirely satisfactory theory to account for how a cell can selectively mutate certain genes in response to environmental signals.
I wonder if you misunderstand how "random" is being used when talking of mutations. As far as I can tell, nobody is denying that the mutation rate can be higher for some genes than for others. It seems to me that natural selection can account for this. I don't see any need to bring in some kind of quantum magic.
He also has some interesting ideas about a possible interaction between electromagnetic fields and consciousness.
I am aware of this work (and highly skeptical of it).
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3672 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I am most sceptical of his docherence calculations. I cannot see a DNA molecule maintaining a coherent state for the immense time-scales he requires. While I believe that a truly isolated system of ANY length-sale can maintain perpetual "external" coherence, I do not see how DNA can be regarded as even approximately isolated.
Perhaps one of biologists could describe the nature of the DNA's nuclear environment, but I don't imagine it's vacuum!
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
I finding this more and more unlikely, essentially it would require an inverse Quantum Zeno Effect.
A fellow of the Cavendish Laboratory, Matthew Donald, has a paper discussing the many flaws in this proposal, including the requirement of a rather artificial Hamiltonian. Donald himself is a proponent of the many-minds interpretation of QM, so he is definitely open to "thinking outside the box" when it comes to Quantum Mechanics, so the standard claim of orthodoxy doesn't apply.
Donald's Paper.
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extremophile Member (Idle past 5623 days) Posts: 53 Joined: |
Yet that quantum events were accepted to be somewhat relevant in mutations (maybe is, maybe is not - I really do not understand much of quantum physics, but what seems to me is that is not necessary to go down to the quantum level to understand mutations), I simply can’t see how come they would be adaptative just because of that.
It’s far more probable, if directed adaptative mutations do exist, that they’re controlled by the cell in a molecular level rather than in the quantum level. Quantum mechanics is a great source of raw material for inventing all the sorts of weird, new-age-like stuff...
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
I believe the whole point of the opening post is whether the mutation can be attributed down to a quantum level. And I believe Cavediver and SonGoku think it is hogwash.
I know that reality is quantized. There are limits to measurement. So my take is we just do not know how far down the rabbit hole reality goes.
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