Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Simple evidence for ID
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 121 of 135 (294414)
03-12-2006 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rawel Singh
03-11-2006 9:38 PM


Re: hostile means uninhabitable
answers your question whether the universe was designed for life. Obviously the whole universe is not to be packed with life but to ensure that whereever there is life it has quality. Seems resonable?!
I disagree with jar that this is off topic. But most of what you said is, if not off topic, unrelated to anything that I said.
The quoted text is a little closer to the topic at hand (and some of what you said earlier). Leaving many objections to one side for the moment, you still have two problems:
1) Most of the inhospitability of the universe is not needed to ensure harmony for life here. It the universe was created for harmonious life, it could have been designed a heck of a lot nicer. Ask the dinosaurs about the universe being harmonious.
2) The fine tuning argument still has issues. Either the universe was fine tuned for our existence, or we are fine tuned for life on earth. We have evidence that populations of living organisms adapt to the environment and we have NO evidence that the environment adapts to living organisms.
Until you can show this fine tuning mechanism at work you have no actual evidence for it. Do you have any evidence of fine tuning going on that could not be simply explained in terms of life adapting to the environment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-11-2006 9:38 PM Rawel Singh has not replied

  
Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 135 (294449)
03-12-2006 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by nwr
03-11-2006 11:54 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design
Design is not a process but the culmination of the process of plannimg.During this process, the designer identifies the existing situation, carries out an appreciation of where he wants to go, what are the impediments, how they can be overcome,what are the resources required and then arrives at the de. This is what the Creator of the universe has done and produced a design which is flawless. We are dealing here with physical realities which are not abstract. You have said that I have said nothing about the designer. I have been saying all along that it is the Creator, God. This design could not have been carried out by evolution if that is what you have been expecting to hear. Coming back to the subject let us not make the design of the universe look abstract; it is a reality we see and experience every moment and we are all its beneficiaries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nwr, posted 03-11-2006 11:54 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 03-12-2006 10:00 AM Rawel Singh has replied
 Message 124 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:12 PM Rawel Singh has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 123 of 135 (294464)
03-12-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rawel Singh
03-12-2006 9:04 AM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design
Design is not a process but the culmination of the process of plannimg.
If that is how you are using the term, then you need to provide evidence of this putative process of planning that culminated in what you are calling design.
During this process, the designer identifies the existing situation, carries out an appreciation of where he wants to go, what are the impediments, how they can be overcome,what are the resources required and then arrives at the de.
No, that won't do. You must actually find evidence for this design process. You can't just make it up as you go along.
This thread is supposed to be about evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 9:04 AM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:48 PM nwr has not replied

  
Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 135 (294604)
03-12-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Rawel Singh
03-12-2006 9:04 AM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design
Evidence can be provided in two ways. One is to take out the records and go through them to study how the process of design progressed. That obviously is not possible because the design was implemented billions of years ago. Also the design was not carried out but someone on this earth but before the universe and therefore the earth came into being. We can however depend on the cosmic vision granted to the holy masters by God and then disseminated by them. Guru Nanak the fouder of the Sikh religion describes it like this. After God decided to create the universe, He enclosed the space required for it in a shell like that of an egg. There was coplete darkness for millions of years while God carried out the design. After he carried out the design He decided it was time to launch. He had worked out the sequence in which all this was to be done and it was decided to do it in two phases. The first phase was to provide the wherewithal for the living creatures to be created. At the appointed time the egg shell broke the way it happens in the case of the bird eggs. The infrastructure first came into being followed by the living creatres. Only a core was created and millions of streams formed by the process of evolution. This in short was how the universe came into being and expanded. Details of the cosmos has been given saying that millions of planets were created and held in space without any support according to cosmic laws. There is reference also of the Hindu belief that the earth is supported by a bull similar to the Greek belief thatit is the Atlas. It was clarified that there is no physical supportbut the planets are in revolution according to laws of revolution. A sequence of creation has also been given in the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament wherein man was created the last. The Genesis was probably written 3500 years ago and Guru Granth about 400 tyears ago .The difference in details is due to the availability of scientific knowledge at these two times. Thisis the spiritual approach.
The other way is to study the performance of the design. You might have heard of the term 'Reverse engineering'. This is used even in today's scientifically advanced world. This involves studying the make up of the end product and working backwards. However it is possible in the case of the universe to carry out only a coceptual design check and not the physical check because it is not humanly possible to reach all cmponents of the universe. We have a visible end product, the universe. It not only functions in a clockwork fashion but we set our clocks to it. All our requirements have been provided for; we only have to make efforts to get them. Our life has been organized in such a manner that there is time both for work and rest. As human intellect has developed man has harnessed what was availble in nature for his use.
I will stop here and ask you that in case you do not agree with what I have said, please give an alternative process, if there is one, that has lead to what is. I request you not to keep raising questions but offer an alternqative if there is one. Over to you.
This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-12-2006 05:23 PM
This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-12-2006 05:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 9:04 AM Rawel Singh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 5:20 PM Rawel Singh has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 135 (294608)
03-12-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Rawel Singh
03-12-2006 5:12 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design
Question (1): Why are you responding to your own post?
Question (2): What is it about something that "runs in a clockwork fashion" that should lead us to conclude that it is designed?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:12 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 135 (294619)
03-12-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 5:20 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design1
1.This message in reply to message no 123 of nwr.
2 I am surprised that design of a system working flawlessly like a clock does not impress you. The clock work fashion working of the cosmic system with annual, seasonal and daily phenomena is what I am referring to.
3. Let us not reject anything because it is connected with divine or religion. Everything should be seen with an open mind.Please do not subscribe to a religion if you do not want to but at least do it after intelligent and objective examination. Quoting someone else does not help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 5:20 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 6:03 PM Rawel Singh has not replied
 Message 129 by nwr, posted 03-12-2006 6:36 PM Rawel Singh has replied

  
Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 135 (294622)
03-12-2006 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by nwr
03-12-2006 10:00 AM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design
Kindly see the reply at 124. It is somehow showing reply to my own post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 03-12-2006 10:00 AM nwr has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 135 (294629)
03-12-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Rawel Singh
03-12-2006 5:43 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design1
quote:
I am surprised that design of a system working flawlessly like a clock does not impress you.
Why should I be impressed by this argument? The only conclusion that we can reach from your observation is that you have a weakness for poor analogies.
-
quote:
Let us not reject anything because it is connected with divine or religion.
I am not rejecting anything because it is connected with the divine or religion. I am rejecting something for which there is no good reason to accept.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:43 PM Rawel Singh has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 129 of 135 (294639)
03-12-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Rawel Singh
03-12-2006 5:43 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design1
This message in reply to message no 123 of nwr.
I was wondering if you intended that as a reply to me. Clearly you clicked the wrong "Reply" button.
I am surprised that design of a system working flawlessly like a clock does not impress you.
How do we know that it works flawlessly like a clock. Maybe it works erratically, in fits and starts. But because we are part of the same system, we work with the same fits and starts, and so we don't notice them.
Let us not reject anything because it is connected with divine or religion.
I'm not doing that. I'm just rejecting your argument from incredulity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 5:43 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-12-2006 10:08 PM nwr has not replied

  
Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 135 (294725)
03-12-2006 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by nwr
03-12-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Harmony in nature proves Intelligent Design1
I wish you Good Luck. God bless you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by nwr, posted 03-12-2006 6:36 PM nwr has not replied

  
Dare-to-question
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 135 (302581)
04-09-2006 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by coffee_addict
04-24-2005 3:17 PM


Another opinion of ID vs evolution
Anyone following the debate between creationists and evolutionists might care to visit Index of / “The Weeping Redwood Tree” is an allegory that might contribute to a harmonious and deeper understanding between science and religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by coffee_addict, posted 04-24-2005 3:17 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by AdminJar, posted 04-09-2006 10:18 AM Dare-to-question has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 135 (302598)
04-09-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Dare-to-question
04-09-2006 6:36 AM


looks like you are just spamming us.
You've posted exactly the same message, one with absolutely no information content, in several threads.
If you wish to discuss things fine. But cut & paste or spamming links is not acceptable here. One more such incident and your permissions to post will be suspended.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
  • "Columnist's Corner" Forum
    See also Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Dare-to-question, posted 04-09-2006 6:36 AM Dare-to-question has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 133 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2006 11:54 AM AdminJar has not replied
     Message 134 by Dare-to-question, posted 04-09-2006 3:03 PM AdminJar has not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1404 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 133 of 135 (302606)
    04-09-2006 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 132 by AdminJar
    04-09-2006 10:18 AM


    Re: looks like you are just spamming us.
    That was my conclusion too.
    Doing a google, there is a Kevin Scott in East Sussex
    and the title of the webpage is "dare to question" ...
    This message has been edited by RAZD, 04*09*2006 11:56 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by AdminJar, posted 04-09-2006 10:18 AM AdminJar has not replied

      
    Dare-to-question
    Inactive Member


    Message 134 of 135 (302643)
    04-09-2006 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 132 by AdminJar
    04-09-2006 10:18 AM


    Re: looks like you are just spamming us.
    Sorry. I'm new on the block. Will carefully read guidelines in future.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by AdminJar, posted 04-09-2006 10:18 AM AdminJar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by RAZD, posted 04-09-2006 5:11 PM Dare-to-question has not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1404 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 135 of 135 (302670)
    04-09-2006 5:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 134 by Dare-to-question
    04-09-2006 3:03 PM


    Welcome
    No probs, as long as you participate in the discussions rather than push an agenda eh?
    So is that your website? If so you might want to put that message in your signature.

    Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 134 by Dare-to-question, posted 04-09-2006 3:03 PM Dare-to-question has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024