God as the source for man's creative explosion

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Soffer suggests that changes in social relations, such as development of the nuclear family, played a key role in bringing about the transformation.

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Klein, on the other hand, proffers the notion that it was probably a biological change brought about by mutations that played the key role in the emergence of behaviorally modern humans. His biologically based explanation implies that a major neural reorganization of the brain resulted in a significant enhancement in the manner in which the brain processed information.

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sourceI would like to propose the infamous, God did it, explanation for this “creative explosion”(CE). This CE seems like a good candidate for us, humans, receiving our spiritual component, the soul. Could this be God’s method of creating us “in his image”?I would like to discuss other people’s theories on the source of this CE and/or read support for either Soffer or Klein’s theories.I would like to avoid the simple smartass comments like “What is this soul thing you’re talking about?” or “That’s easy, Principle of Parsimony, just leave God out of it.”I just think its interesting and because I accept that our species evolved and I believe that we have a soul, I think there has to be some point on our evolutionary pathway where we were separated from the rest of the homonids, not only physically or behaviorly but spiritually as well.

Where would you like this to go?I can suggest Creation/Evolution Miscellany, if you mainly want to discuss the scientific issues, such as what is different biologically about homo sapiens that resulted in this creativity.Or maybe Social Issues and Creation/Evolution if you want it in the social and religious forums, so as to allow biblical references to be part of the discussion. But you might get arguments about the 40-50,000 years timeline if placed there.I suppose it could go in Is It Science? if you want to discuss whether there are circumstances such that "God did it" is allowable as science.My leanings would be to the first of those suggestions. But it is your topic, so indicate where you want it.

Social Issues and Creation/Evolution please.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Why do you find Soffer or Klein's explanations inadequate?

I don't like Soffer's because it seems like a goalpost movement. The question is moved to "why the social change?" Basically they are just saying that a social change played a key role but it doesn't really answer much.The problem with Klein's is stated in the article.

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This is a difficult hypothesis to test since brains do not fossilize. But it is significant that no changes are seen in the shape of the skulls between earlier and later Homo sapiens./ (empahsis added) It can only be surmised from the archaeological record, which contains abundant evidence for ritual and art, that these Upper Paleolithic/Late Stone Age peoples possessed language abilities equivalent to our own.

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I also find them inadequate becuase they don't mention the soul

Why even bother trying to make such an argument? Why not just say that at this time the cause of the Cultural Explosion is unknown? Trying to insert Goddidit is simply making sure that when we do find out what lead to the CE it will be another strike against the existence of GOD. In addition, it's just not needed. Why even make the assumption that humans are different in kind from any other critter?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'd like to hear form people who believe in the soul about wether or not this CE looks like it could be the result of the soul, or some interaction from god and how it fits with others belief and the bible.I'd like to hear from people who don't believe in the soul about possible natural explanations in addition to or support for the two I pasted. I said that I found it interesting and just stopping it at we don't know isn't any fun, I'd rather explore some of the possibilities with others. I don't really care about that. Well, other than 'because the bible tells me so' and that it seems blindingly obvious from our civilization, I thought this part suggested some kind of importance to the CE

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The stunning change in cultural adaptation was not merely a quantitative one, but one that represented a significant departure from all earlier human behavior, reflecting a major qualitative transformation.

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The basic principle of creativity is "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." That is, it has to do with social cooperation.Cooperation allows better use of brains. One of the cooperating people can concentrate on getting food, while the other concentrates on making tools. This spreads the problem over several brains.As for biology -- I'll go with Desmond Morris as a first approximation. There is also a wiki entry. In his book "The Naked Ape", he suggested neotony as an important characteristic of humans. The effect is that an infant is born rather immature, and requires lots of help. Much brain development occurs while the child is young, and receiving parental care. This combination is important in socializing the child.As for the "God did it" part - that's something we can each decide for ourselves. Science should stick to what was done, and not who did it.

What does the soul have to do with Creativity? Nobody said stop. All I said was there is absolutely no reason to say goddidit. Now THAT would be stopping and abandoning any hope of ever finding the real answer.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, I got two ways of looking at it.When the Bible says we were made in god’s image, I don’t take it to mean that we have the same physical form. I think it is referring to some spiritual common that we have with god, and the breath of life parallels that view. So, god is a creator, and we have creativity and we share a common spiritual aspect (our soul), this leads me to think that maybe the soul is a source for our creativity.Another thing I look at is that we behave differently from the other animals and have abilities beyond theirs, this coupled with me feeling like I do have a soul, leads me to believe that god did give us something that the other animals didn’t get (the soul). Like I said earlier, I also think its obvious that our species evolved from a common ancestor with the other modern apes. So, somewhere along the line we had to receive a soul (get the breath of life) and after that thinking comes the reading of this creative explosion, so this lead me to think that maybe they were the same event.

It seems like this would be an easy thing for nature to select for too, spreading the problem over several brains would definately have its advantages. Neoteny in other species seems limited to physical charateristics. Be it flightless birds resembling the chicks of flying birds, or that salamander species that retains its gills through adulthood. It seems odd that our species would have some kind of social neoteny that should still be considered 'neoteny' but I understnad where Morris is comming from and it is a plausible idea. As much as socializing the child depends on brain development, I think brain development depends on socializing the child. This, too, would be easy to select against as children who were not socialized well would be lack some developed.

Humans are unique in ways removed from the other animals. Language is one way that we are unique. OK...the tagline of this forum states: Is evolution the source of the decline in modern morality? But "morality" is getting slightly off topic as pertains to your thread, CS! In a nutshell, Sofer explains creativeness as a socially learned behavior
whereas Klein seems to lean towards a biological adaptation....am I right? OK...I know that you guys can have sole or cod or whatever...on Fridays, though! ( Phat knows little of catholicism! )(Phat also knows little of science! ) I think that Catholic Scientist wants to verify the philosophical arguments leading to God creating a unique spark in humans....if we can quantify such an event! I mean...if dolphins go to Heaven, it would not negate the Bibles message. Perhaps the question could be framed as Are humans unique among the animals? One way is our communication and our ability to quantify and theorize. Dolphins, however, can communicate in ways that we do not. Do they have a soul? (Don't even think about having Dolphin on Friday, either! ) According to the Bible, God talked to humans before they found Him. I believe that it is the same way today. The creative explosion is evolving through education and discovery, yet it could be said that the creative impartation of the Creator reaches many people every day in unique and special ways. And you don't have to be at Mass to receive it, either. A Communion is a Common Union between two or more individuals. If you are alone in a room, think about who you could still have a common union with. HINT: Its not Harvey the big white rabbit, unless you slipped up on taking your meds again! I quite agree, NWR!Science can no more be explained "creatively" (Through a Creator) than can Jesus be verified scientifically!Creation Science is an oxymoron. I believe that God has an imagination and that His imagination is the Spirit that touches us. When God imagines, He creates. God is not evolving. The concept of God is evolving within our human minds, however. We can both trust God (and His impartation) and also educate ourselves and evolve into what we were meant to become. What we cannot do is imagine our own way of how things get created. Our imagination is never a creative force...it is a recreative force. Everything has already been created, in my opinion. We just have to find out how its done!This message has been edited by Phat, 03-28-2006 04:28 PM

Are you thinking that maybe, it was with the advent of culture that humans were imparted a soul? This creative explosion sounds to me more like an acceleration of culture uptake; since culture was present in other hominids, such as the neandertals. They even had burial rituals. Who knows? They may have also found religion.While i still haven't made my mind up as to the existence of a soul, a point to consider is whether or not humans are the only animals with a soul. Other religions don't feel this way. Many schools of Hinduism, posit the existence of a soul in all life-forms. So this could lead back to whether or not the Bible has the idea of a humans-only soul correct.

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"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

Might not be true, Phat.
Whales have exhibited higher level language skills as well.
Whale language skill

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"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine