Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 51 (9179 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,197 Year: 5,454/9,624 Month: 479/323 Week: 119/204 Day: 19/16 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Imported weed diversification supports macro-evolution
mark24
Member (Idle past 5307 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 31 of 59 (298227)
03-26-2006 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kuresu
03-25-2006 8:33 PM


kurusu,
right, so speciation isn't macroevolution immediately, but following the definition I gave of macro evolution, which the other defintion given by Levinton appears to agree with, then this speciation will eventually result in macro-evolution.
Speciation is a part of a process that may result in macroevolution at some point, when compared to the "start" point.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by kuresu, posted 03-25-2006 8:33 PM kuresu has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 59 (298285)
03-26-2006 11:22 AM


It's "melanin", FYI
Melatonin is a neurotransmitter.
Melanin is skin pigment.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 59 (298290)
03-26-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by mark24
03-26-2006 3:54 AM


There is more genetic difference within races than between them. There is no biological rationale for race.
This is just too preciously politically correct, and missing the whole point. Is or is it not the very same process of population genetics that has produced the human "races," no matter what you think of the term, and no matter how much genetic diversity still exists within them, that leads to speciation in animals, produces "ring species" for instance? I'm talking about something OBSERVABLE. One can usually tell a Norwegian from an Italian, an Arab from a Mongolian. Sheesh. And there are even recognizable differences in general appearance between members of isolated tribes who are nevertheless related.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-26-2006 11:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mark24, posted 03-26-2006 3:54 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 03-26-2006 12:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2006 1:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 39 by mark24, posted 03-26-2006 2:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-26-2006 5:50 PM Faith has replied
 Message 43 by mark24, posted 03-26-2006 6:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 846 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 59 (298307)
03-26-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-26-2006 11:31 AM


This is just too preciously politically correct,
No, it's what's supported by the DNA data. Your average !Kung from Namibia differs immensely, as human variation goes, from his fellow "Negroes" that are of Bantu or Ethiopian descent. The genetic distance from Swede to Montegnard is small by comparison.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-26-2006 12:25 PM Coragyps has replied
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 1:02 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Inactive Administrator


Message 35 of 59 (298312)
03-26-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
03-26-2006 12:09 PM


Topic drift alert! etc...
I know genetic differences within/between races has been covered before somewhere, but I think it's time to cover it again.
How about submitting something to the Proposed New Topics forum?
Per this topic - People, get back on the weed.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 03-26-2006 12:09 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Coragyps, posted 03-26-2006 4:13 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 59 (298328)
03-26-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
03-26-2006 12:09 PM


Unfortunately I forget where this subtopic started, but the DNA picture is not the point. I'm talking about the OBSERVABLE differences from one isolated population to another based on the principles of population genetics. That is, there are lots n lots of different groups of human beings that have developed their own genetic picture that differentiates them from the others, mostly because of migration.
Moose, this IS on the topic of the weed. It's about the normal processes of variation, how you get a different type of something.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-26-2006 01:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 03-26-2006 12:09 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1579 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 59 (298329)
03-26-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-26-2006 11:31 AM


One can usually tell a Norwegian from an Italian, an Arab from a Mongolian.
How about a Norwegian whose father was Italian? Or the son of an Arab and a Mongolian? Or could you identify by sight a Jew? How is a religion a race?
The problem with race is that it obeys none of the laws of genetics that you and I are familiar with. If a white person and a black person have a child, that child is typically described as "half-black"; if two half-black people have a child and that child is 1/4 "black", we're well beyond making any sense of race in a human species that has only two copies of every chromosome. As a diploid organism you're either full, half, or none.
Sure, we would expect human evolution in varied remote geographies to result in semi-seperated populations of human beings identifiable by certain physical traits. But the cultural concept of "race", which conflates genetics, ethnicity, religion, and a host of other biases, has really no basis in physical reality. And it should be noted that the trend in humans now is one of decreasing genetic variability between groups, not increasing. If we ever were "raced", we're rapidly ceasing to be so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 1:47 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 59 (298333)
03-26-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
03-26-2006 1:12 PM


Sure, we would expect human evolution in varied remote geographies to result in semi-seperated populations of human beings identifiable by certain physical traits.
Well, gee, thanks for acknowledging that simple point finally.
But the cultural concept of "race", which conflates genetics, ethnicity, religion, and a host of other biases, has really no basis in physical reality.
Just the usual political correctness. Who cares. You're getting all hung up on a term. Gotta get all that political baggage into it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-26-2006 01:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2006 1:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2006 2:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5307 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 39 of 59 (298342)
03-26-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-26-2006 11:31 AM


Faith,
Is or is it not the very same process of population genetics that has produced the human "races,"
No, races as you understand them were not produced. It is in fact genetics that has taught us this.
There are populations of black africans that are more dissimilar to each other than whites are to them, genetically speaking. Australian aborigines are more similar to white caucasians than black africans. This means that we do when we declare races is that we are taking a small part of a large character set & attributing race in this way. Unfortunately we are also ignoring the larger picture which leads us to false conclusions.
I'm talking about something OBSERVABLE. One can usually tell a Norwegian from an Italian, an Arab from a Mongolian. Sheesh. And there are even recognizable differences in general appearance between members of isolated tribes who are nevertheless related.
None of the groups you cited are races. And as for assigning races to groups because of OBSERVABLE characters, how about big noses? They are observable. Eye colour? It goes on. Why not. Dark skin is not indicative of common descent in human populations, so why lump them together because of it?
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 03-26-2006 02:26 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 11:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1579 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 59 (298344)
03-26-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
03-26-2006 1:47 PM


Just the usual political correctness. Who cares. You're getting all hung up on a term. Gotta get all that political baggage into it.
That's why it's such a bad term; it comes pre-loaded with all that political baggage. It clouds the discussion and obfuscates meaning. Given that that's the case I don't understand why you're so adamant that this term be used.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 1:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 846 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 41 of 59 (298363)
03-26-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Adminnemooseus
03-26-2006 12:25 PM


Re: Topic drift alert! etc...
People, get back on the weed.
"No, no, no, no, I don't smoke it no more
I'm tired of wakin' up on the floor..."
-- R. Starkey

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-26-2006 12:25 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 59 (298385)
03-26-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-26-2006 11:31 AM


quote:
One can usually tell a Norwegian from an Italian, an Arab from a Mongolian.
Oh?
What race is this man?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 8:09 PM nator has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5307 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 43 of 59 (298403)
03-26-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-26-2006 11:31 AM


Faith,
In addition to Schraf's post, what race are these children?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 03-26-2006 8:07 PM mark24 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 59 (298417)
03-26-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by mark24
03-26-2006 6:33 PM


Irrelevant. Where did I say I personally could recognize all the different races and tribes of humanity any more than I could recognize the five different races and tribes of goatsbeard?
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-26-2006 08:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mark24, posted 03-26-2006 6:33 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 03-26-2006 8:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 50 by mark24, posted 03-27-2006 3:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 59 (298418)
03-26-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nator
03-26-2006 5:50 PM


Where did I say I could recognize all the tribes of humanity?
And where did I say I could recognize if a tribe recombined with another tribe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 03-26-2006 5:50 PM nator has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024