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Author Topic:   Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 664 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 196 of 304 (289978)
02-24-2006 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
02-19-2006 4:25 PM


I would argue that the concept of a Fall makes sense--that is, it could be an explanation of the human condition.
The questions I asked myself as you asked that is, do animals sin?
Do they know good and evil?
Did they fall with us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 02-19-2006 4:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 6:21 AM riVeRraT has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 304 (289982)
02-24-2006 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by riVeRraT
02-24-2006 6:02 AM


The questions I asked myself as you asked that is, do animals sin?
Do they know good and evil?
Did they fall with us?
I would assume not. They're just part of fallen nature. They went down with the ship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by riVeRraT, posted 02-24-2006 6:02 AM riVeRraT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 198 of 304 (289984)
02-24-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by robinrohan
02-24-2006 5:42 AM


Re: Causes of suffering
To deal with the rest of the argument, then
quote:
the other part is that evolution gives us a naturalistic explanation of the origin of man--thus no god needed.
This only provides an alternative option for the origin of man, and does not even count as good evidence against the existence of a God.
quote:
If one believed in special creation by God, one could believe in a Fall. But if one accepted evolution, one could not believe in a Fall. And if one cannot believe in a Fall, then there was no argument one could advance to explain the cruelty of nature
This is juat a repeat of the argument I referred to in the previous post.
quote:
So special creation by an all-powerful, all-good God necessitated a belief in the Fall.
This remains to be seen. It has not even been shown that "the Fall" is consistent with the idea of "creation by an all-powerful all-good God" and there are good reasons to doubt it. (An "all-good" God would not set someone else up to do his dirty work, nor refuse to accept responsiblity of the consequences of His actions).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 5:42 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 11:08 AM PaulK has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 304 (290056)
02-24-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by PaulK
02-24-2006 6:29 AM


Re: Causes of suffering
(An "all-good" God would not set someone else up to do his dirty work, nor refuse to accept responsiblity of the consequences of His actions).
Perhaps it could be argued that one type of action an all-good God would perform would be to provide his creatures with free will.

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 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2006 6:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2006 11:36 AM robinrohan has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 200 of 304 (290064)
02-24-2006 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by robinrohan
02-24-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Causes of suffering
Invoking free will as the answer has numerous problems.
Firstly there is the question of what constitutes free will. So far as I can determine libertarian free will is an incoherent concept, yet it is hard to see how compatibilist formulations could be of real help.
Secondly the God concept we are dealing with typically has knowledge of the future - including actions that are supposedly freely willed (e.g. Peter denying Jesus three times). This in itself undermines the concept that a creator-God could honestly deny responsibility for such decisions since they would be a forseeable and necessary consequence of His actions.
Thirdly it is certainly hard to say that free will is in itself responsible for even all human suffering, let alone the suffering in nature. Yet if free will is not adequate in itself then the rest of the explanation must be provided.
Fourthly if free will is considered a good sufficient to justify the suffering then we would have a theodicy adequate to explain the existence of suffering. Thus we would no longer have need for a "Fall" as such. But if it is not a sufficent good then the creator would be wrong to permit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 11:08 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 12:38 PM PaulK has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 304 (290096)
02-24-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by PaulK
02-24-2006 11:36 AM


Re: Causes of suffering
Firstly there is the question of what constitutes free will. So far as I can determine libertarian free will is an incoherent concept, yet it is hard to see how compatibilist formulations could be of real help.
For free will to be possible, one needs an incorporeal mind. We could designate that, I suppose, as the "soul."
Secondly the God concept we are dealing with typically has knowledge of the future - including actions that are supposedly freely willed (e.g. Peter denying Jesus three times). This in itself undermines the concept that a creator-God could honestly deny responsibility for such decisions since they would be a forseeable and necessary consequence of His actions.
To know someone is going to do something is not the same thing as making them do it.
Thirdly it is certainly hard to say that free will is in itself responsible for even all human suffering, let alone the suffering in nature. Yet if free will is not adequate in itself then the rest of the explanation must be provided.
Nature fell when man fell, as punishment for his sin.
Fourthly if free will is considered a good sufficient to justify the suffering then we would have a theodicy adequate to explain the existence of suffering. Thus we would no longer have need for a "Fall" as such. But if it is not a sufficent good then the creator would be wrong to permit it.
The concept of the Fall is necessary to explain the cruelty of nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2006 11:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2006 12:52 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 205 by Madfish, posted 02-25-2006 12:31 AM robinrohan has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17907
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 202 of 304 (290101)
02-24-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by robinrohan
02-24-2006 12:38 PM


Re: Causes of suffering
quote:
For free will to be possible, one needs an incorporeal mind. We could designate that, I suppose, as the "soul."
You are simply repeating an assertion you cannot support. And it isn't even relevant to the point.
quote:
To know someone is going to do something is not the same thing as making them do it.
This is a strawman since I made no such assertion.
quote:
Nature fell when man fell, as punishment for his sin.
Thus you propose a God who punishes the innocent and is therefore by your standards "evil". Since you propose the idea of a Fall as a way of avoiding such a conclusion this argument is self-defeating.
quote:
The concept of the Fall is necessary to explain the cruelty of nature.
If the presence of free will is an adequate justification for the suffering, and free will is an adequate explanation for the existence of suffering then the Fall as such is not required. Again you are making an assertion that requires support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 12:38 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 203 of 304 (290174)
02-24-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
02-24-2006 1:56 AM


Chaospoet writes:
I have been watching everyone debate the mechanics of religon. The Fall of man as a chemical imbalance in the brain, the resulting sin as an after thought of Gods inadequacy to properly supervise his test creatures. It causes me great concern to watch these debates.. I found Jesus.. or rather he found me.. all it required of me was to ask for his grace. Lord please help me i cant do this by myself. Sometimes all it takes is a simple leap of faith. Ask God to help.
With all the cut n' thrust of debating its possible to forget the basics. Maybe the wind against which we attempt to pee is of our own making.

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 Message 190 by Faith, posted 02-24-2006 1:56 AM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 204 of 304 (290179)
02-24-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by robinrohan
02-24-2006 5:04 AM


+++Stop press +++ Stop press +++
Robin, if I were to arrive on this site having never seen it before but having a grasp of the issues - I might have had you pegged as a Christian apologist.
But I'm not in that position. So, as an quick off-topic-er, can you tell me your absolute top three favorite objections to Christianity at this current time.
This message has been edited by iano, 24-Feb-2006 10:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 5:04 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 12:29 PM iano has replied

Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 304 (290251)
02-25-2006 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by robinrohan
02-24-2006 12:38 PM


Re: Causes of suffering
quote:
For free will to be possible, one needs an incorporeal mind. We could designate that, I suppose, as the "soul."
  —robinrohan
Perhaps I view "free will" differently. I don't think that free will in the way a lot of people view it (being able to make different choices arbitrarily) exists whether there is a god or not. I don't think a soul changes that in any respect.
I do believe, however, in choice. The ability to weigh options and choose one based on the expected results does exist, again, regardless of a soul. I fail to see how this "soul" changes that in any regard, but then again, I reject the popular notion of "free will" anyways.
I apologize if I rambled, and if this is off-topic. =/

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by robinrohan, posted 02-24-2006 12:38 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 12:30 PM Madfish has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 304 (290307)
02-25-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by iano
02-24-2006 5:41 PM


Re: +++Stop press +++ Stop press +++
So, as an quick off-topic-er, can you tell me your absolute top three favorite objections to Christianity at this current time.
Any religion, not just Christianity, is an attempt to deny what seems to me obvious--the arbitrary, accidental nature of life.
Bring in evolution, and religion has a real problem on its hands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by iano, posted 02-24-2006 5:41 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 02-25-2006 1:20 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 215 by iano, posted 02-25-2006 4:52 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 304 (290309)
02-25-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Madfish
02-25-2006 12:31 AM


Re: Causes of suffering
I do believe, however, in choice.
Who does the choosing? A "self" of some sort? Where is this self?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Madfish, posted 02-25-2006 12:31 AM Madfish has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by lfen, posted 02-25-2006 1:51 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 304 (290343)
02-25-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by robinrohan
02-25-2006 12:29 PM


Re: +++Stop press +++ Stop press +++
Any religion, not just Christianity, is an attempt to deny what seems to me obvious--the arbitrary, accidental nature of life.
Bring in evolution, and religion has a real problem on its hands.
So, are you saying that the Fall is the Christian way of denying the arbitrary accidental nature of life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 12:29 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 1:23 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 304 (290347)
02-25-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
02-25-2006 1:20 PM


Re: +++Stop press +++ Stop press +++
So, are you saying that the Fall is the Christian way of denying the arbitrary accidental nature of life?
That's exactly what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 02-25-2006 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 02-25-2006 1:27 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 210 of 304 (290352)
02-25-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by robinrohan
02-25-2006 1:23 PM


Re: +++Stop press +++ Stop press +++
So, are you saying that the Fall is the Christian way of denying the arbitrary accidental nature of life?
That's exactly what it is.
So what are you picturing? Some time in the past somebody or a committee of somebodies sat down in order to solve this problem of the arbitrary accidental nature of life and came up with the Fall?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 1:23 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by robinrohan, posted 02-25-2006 1:31 PM Faith has replied

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