Karl Rove: Traitor?

Did you think that we were idiots who forgot what Bush campaigned on in 2000?Well, I didn't forget, because I voted for him based on his campaign promises. An end to destructive, imperialist "nation-building." Individual freedoms and liberty. A restoration of dignity to the White House.Instead, we got the Iraq quagmire, USA PATRIOT and anti-gay amendments, and a President who says "nukular" and chokes on pretzels.Bush has been remarkably dishonest about his intentions; he's shown a remarkable ability to flip-flop on the issues. One day it's a committment to reduce fossil fuel dependancy and expand alternative energy sources; the next day its "I was only speaking metaphorically" about the reduction and he's laying off half of the alternative energy research staff. Which reports were leaked? We absolutely do know that her name was classified, according to the most recent reports from the CIA. There's no longer any question.

I voted for Bush too crash. (although I didn't make that mistake the 2nd time)... I've been regretting it everyday since. Although one good thing is that I am MUCH MORE diligent about doing research on political issues and points of view than I was before. Bush has also made me question many of my own beliefs (always been an atheist, but I used to be a big-time right-winger). Bush made me realize that much of what I had believed for much of my life was total crap. I guess I can thank him for that.

As you can imagine, Rand, I agree with almost none of what you had to say. But we've been over all that before.So I am content to note that a growing majority of the American people feel, as I do, that Bush is dishonest and untrustworthy.Several years ago my conservative friends (yes, I have some) jeered at my prediction that this one wasn't gonna go away. They're not jeering now--they're figuring out how to distance other Republican candidates from Bush later this year.As to the Republican dream that Libby will be the only indictment that comes out of this perversion of executive responsibility...Dream on. We'll see.

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Although he may have stuck to some ideas of deregulation of business, regulation of free speech, and tax cuts, he kept nothing else. His largest promise was to be a uniter, which he systematically violated. He said he was against nation building (one of the reasons I favored him over Gore) and has never stopped violating that. He was against running a govt on debt, which he has violated. He was against spreading the military thin, which he has violated. He was against growing gov't, which he violated. He said he was for improving the intel community, which he did not do (until forced). He was for gov't accountability and has since entering office never allowed his office to be held accountable.He said he was for honesty, yet he keeps getting caught in half-truths to no truths. He was for a more skilled and efficient gov't yet has engaged in a level of cronyism not seen in some time, and what's worse is that they have done real damage to the US.Even during his last election he promised better response to national emergencies and the very first test was a catastrophic failure.At least people used to say "911 changed everything". That acknowledges why the change occured. To claim Bush stuck by his campaign promises is just antireality. One side blew the whistle on administration negligence if not distortion. That is protected under law. The other side leaked confidential and damaging (personal if not national) information as part of an untrue story to discredit a whistle blower.If you cannot tell where the problem lies then what can I say?As far as your claims about Wilson, I do not understand what you are talking about. He did go out on a trip and he did come back with good information. The only "question" was if he, in the article and in hearings, claimed responsibility for more info than he had actually dealt with/delivered to the CIA. That is WHOLLY separate from whether he had gotten good info for the CIA, and whether that info was mishandled the CIA in a way to help the administration's case (which it was as is discussed in the Senate Hearing reports).I cannot believe with the amount of info out there we are still dealing with this level of confuscation.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

quote:

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One side blew the whistle on administration negligence if not distortion.

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One could also make the argument that this is a necessity in a country that fancies itself a democracy.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Absolutely. And what's more this administration has criticized other gov'ts and orgs (like the UN) for not being transparent enough, lauding the fact that they will force transparency on these other systems, while slamming a lead curtain down around themselves.Whistleblower protection is a part of transparency, and we seem to encourage it in others.I am dumbfounded when people equate whistleblowing with leaking information to create an attack on whistelblowers for nothing but personal gain. I mean what on earth did leaking Plame's identity do to help the nation?

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

What perversion was that?

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I'd still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving across a bridge with Ted Kennedy.

I understand your confusion, Tal--there have been so many!But I was referring to the one under discussion in this thread.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-16-2006 04:04 PM

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A growing majority do not feel Bush is dishonest, etc,..as you guys say, which is a large reason why the dems cannnot get much traction from Bush's failures.The public is upset by a couple of things:1. the horrible handling of the Katrina disaster
2. the war in Iraq, specifically the lack of vision, planning, etc,...Those are the issues. Unfortunately for the dems, they have not convinced the American public they would be more competent or have any better ideas.

If you think moving left will help, you are sadly mistaken. Bush's problem is not he is too right wing, conservative, etc,...It's that he is not very conservative at all in many ways. He is really a centrist.He is conservative on some social issues and tax cuts, but other than that?He is for Big Gov spending; said he was during the campaign; ran on dem ideas of expanding education spending and programs, a prescription drug benefit, etc,...and he did all that.He also cut taxes. Maybe you are now for tax increases?What a lot of people do not realize is that deciding to go to war in Iraq is not a conservative issue. It is a judgment call. Clinton, if he had the backing of Congress, probably would have done the same thing, as evidenced by him getting us into all sorts of smaller wars.Imo, the biggest issue with Bush is his trusting that he can use the government to solve problems, and along with that comes big spending, which is my primary concern. The Iraq thing also stems from believing the government can be used to change the world instead of relying on people to do that all on their own.Perhaps all of us have some liberalism in us (trust of using government), but I would think someone that was "right wing" would just be even more right wing looking at Bush since the areas most consider failings directly relate to his liberal side, trusting Big Government as an effective tool. Keep in mind the new Homeland Security idea was also a dem idea, and it ruined our ability to respond to disasters.This message has been edited by randman, 02-16-2006 04:25 PM

So has anyone been charged with leaking classified info?

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I'd still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving across a bridge with Ted Kennedy.

Nice try, Tal, but I'm not going to play 20 questions with you.We've been over this ground. My opinion about what charges have been brought and why--and what charges may yet be brought--are on record in this thread.If you have some new info or insight to offer, please do, and I will respond.

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I'll respond for you. The answer is no.However, if you have some new info or insight to offer, please do, and I will respond.This message has been edited by Tal, 02-16-2006 06:26 PM

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I'd still rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving across a bridge with Ted Kennedy.

Nice try, but you should really know better than to say things like this without checking them first.The truth is quite the reverse. A sizeable majoirty now question Bush's honesty, and that number is growing. A poll taken in November found that 40% found him honest and trustworthy; a decline of 18% from a poll taken 18 months prior.Bush is a liar. That's incontrovertable:

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Anytime you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so.

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Tal! That's the most concise, elegantly written, and correctly punctuated sentence you've ever contributed! You must be hanging out with a smarter crowd than is your wont.P.S. I'd rather go hunting with Cheney, too, though probably for different reasons. On the other hand, I don't think I'd be allowed to dodge the police for 14 hours while I sobered up.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-16-2006 07:23 PM

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