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Author Topic:   Early Instances of Christian Elements: Borrowings, Anticipations or Satanic Mockery?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 34 (286347)
02-14-2006 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
02-13-2006 10:04 PM


Re: Tell it to the little Jewish boy....
NO, actually , he didn't.
He said to follow the Laws.. Not ONE Wit of the law shall be changed until all is accomplished.
Guess what.. all is not accomplished yet.
Yes, the christians feel he came to fullfill the law.. but fullfill is not to change or abolish.
He didn't change or abolish anything, he fulfilled it all personally as no ordinary human being could, only the perfect Man Jesus. Which is why any ordinary person who tries to live by the law in his own flesh is doomed to Hell.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-14-2006 02:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 02-13-2006 10:04 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1699 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 34 (286348)
02-14-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by ramoss
02-13-2006 10:06 PM


Re: Some pretty wild assertions there Faith.
I notice you have not quoted chapter and verse of anything.
I noticed you are unable to discuss the chapter and verse in context.
Vague statements does not an arguement make.
Unable? Oh far from it. I just assumed that anybody with the slightest knowledge of the New Testament would recognize my casual references. My mistake. Allow me to help you out.
Fine Faith. Chapter and verse so we can discuss your wild assertions. Where is it said that "Judaism is false religion"?
Everywhere he condemns and speaks woe to the Pharisees and the scribes, for they are Judaism then and now as well.
Don't recognize this? Well, try these out:
quote:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].
There's lots more in Luke 11 and 12 too, though most of it repeats Matthew 23.
quote:
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Where is your support that "It [Judaism] is based on the Talmud, not on the Old Testament"?
Wherever Jesus condemns the Pharisees for following the traditions of men instead of God.
See quotes above.
Where is your support that "The New Testament interprets the Old Testament correctly"?
Wherever it does interpret the Old Testament at all. Its writers were Jews who had grown up hearing the Old Testament. The New Testament is the word of God. And God is my support.
My support is as I said, God's own authority, which will ultimately condemn all who dishonor him as is done at EvC all the time.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminOmni
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 34 (286376)
02-14-2006 8:46 AM


2nd Admin Warning
Folks, this thread is about to crash and burn.
Neither a dismissal of the Jewish faith as a false religion nor its defense is on-topic in this thread.
Keep it on topic or it's closing.

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    Trust me.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by Phat, posted 02-15-2006 6:46 AM AdminOmni has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18650
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 4.3


    Message 34 of 34 (286788)
    02-15-2006 6:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 33 by AdminOmni
    02-14-2006 8:46 AM


    Allow me to repost your Original Topic
    So let's discuss what elements of Christian belief were present in pre-Christian pagan beliefs, and the significance of those common elements. Christians might argue that pagan beliefs comprised a premonitory anticipation of Christ; others might assert that pagan religions passed along elements to Christianity in the same fashion that all culture evolves and synthesizes new worldviews from the old.
    Let me start with this passage which suggests a far more profane source for the notion (and phraseology) of virgin birth:
    Sargon is perhaps the first Babylonian king who was said to have a larger-than-life birth and childhood. He was born in secret to a mother of lowly birth and a father who was a mountain god. In a motif which would later be borrowed and attributed to Horus and Moses, Sargon's mother placed the child in a basket of rushes and sent him down a river to protect him from the god's enemies. The babe was rescued downstream by simple folk and the goddess Ishtar loved and guided Sargon through his early childhood and to his final destiny: the ascension of the throne.
    Sargon's biography started a "tall tale" tradition that subsequent kings felt the need to match. The attribute of divine birth and predestination became an important vehicle whereby a mortal king was said to be god-favored; gaining recognition and power during his life which often continued into posterity long after death.
    By 1000 BCE, we find this tradition improved upon so that the biography of kings and important men insist that they were not only divinely born, but said to have transcended death to become gods themselves. Zoroaster, the Persian prophet and patriarch who lived and preached in ancient Babylon, was said to have been God-begotten and virgin born. Virgin-birth was the responsibility of the Ishtar priestesses, who conducted fertility rites, prophesied and performed elaborate rituals in the temples throughout Babylon.
    The priestesses who administered the temples also managed a lucrative prostitution business that provided a steady stream of financial support for temple activities. Upon their return to Palestine, Hebrews of the Babylonian captivity brought back to the Mediterranean peoples wondrous tales of the priestesses and their blasphemous sexual ministries to the men who visited them. The role of the Ishtar priestess was to act as both mother to the prospective man's child and minister to the child's divine needs:
    "Holy Virgin" was the title of harlot-priestesses of Ishtar (and) Asherah. The title didn't mean physical virginity; it meant simply "unmarried." The function of such "holy virgins" was to dispense the Mother's grace through sexual worship; to heal; to prophesy; to perform sacred dances; to wail for the dead; and to become Brides of God."[1]
    The Hebrews called the children of these priestesses bathur, which meant literally "virgin-born" as in those children who were born of the holy harlot-priestesses of the temple. The Hellenic world had no equivalent to the bizarre rituals of Ishtar, and mistranslated and misunderstood the literal Hebrew's bathur as parthenioi, also "virgin-born" but in the sense of physical, not spiritual, virginity.
    from infidels.org
    And one more bit of grist from the same article:
    Zeus was said to have impregnated Danae by visiting her as a ray of sunlight and the dove, sacred to Ishtar, manifests itself as a Holy Ghost to impregnate Mary and announce Jesus as the son of God.
    The Bible was written by human authors. IMHO, Christian belief in my neck of the woods has asserted that there are basically two spirits.
    1) The Holy Spirit, originating from One God and personified in the character of Jesus Christ.(Who was In The Beginning)
    2) All of the "other" spirits that were allowed to become independant of the Holy Spirit, thus setting up a sort of "dualistic" reality in regards to Spirituality.
    Now....even inspired human authors are limited in their expression, just as I am right now as I type this response. Much of the O.T. shows human fallibility as people struggle to know God and what He actually wants for them.
    IF my original premise (and belief) is correct, there is undoubtedly a spiritual war that exists within human behavior and conscience. Early religions would have no bearing on my belief since God predates humanity. However...where did I "get" my beliefs?
    Some would say that I learned it through the oral tradition of human expression passed down through the ages. I cannot deny that this is plausible and logical.
    I would assert, however, that God still predates humanity and human explanation, however...based on the impartation of truth as I understand it.
    There is little doubt, however, that much of the rituals and stories within any modern day religion were borrowed from somewhere.
    Christianity as a religion did not have the KJV handed to them from a big hand in the sky, any more than God alone spoke to the Jews while the Muslims had deceiving spirits mess with them only!
    I honestly think that the cacaphonic scenario was allowed to happen so that humanity would have the chance to put the jigsaw puzzle together again or tear themselves apart.
    I disagree with Jar that everyone on the planet is already saved...except in the sense that Christ has made it possible!
    There is nothing, really...that I can teach any of you about Christ that He won't teach you better than I ever can!

    Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by AdminOmni, posted 02-14-2006 8:46 AM AdminOmni has not replied

      
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