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Author Topic:   How do you know truth?
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 114 (27853)
12-25-2002 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by John
12-25-2002 2:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, if a mental image exists, then it does so in the same sense that an abstract concept "exists."
Ok. What you seem to be missing is that all images are MENTAL images. Everything you see is a mental image. You don't see anything in its raw state. The brain interprets everything BEFORE it become the image you see. This is why optical illusions work. They screw with the brain's pre-processing routines.
Thus, the images you imagine and the images you see are formed via the same processes. Its just that the raw input is different.

john i'm not sure i've ever really asked you, but do you believe the material universe is all that exists? do you believe that only those things suspended in space and time are "real?" also, what is your working definition (philosophical) of 'transcendental'? we don't want to get into a semantic dispute

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by John, posted 12-25-2002 2:53 PM John has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 114 (27856)
12-25-2002 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by John
12-25-2002 2:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, if a mental image exists, then it does so in the same sense that an abstract concept "exists."
Ok. What you seem to be missing is that all images are MENTAL images. Everything you see is a mental image. You don't see anything in its raw state. The brain interprets everything BEFORE it become the image you see. This is why optical illusions work. They screw with the brain's pre-processing routines.
Thus, the images you imagine and the images you see are formed via the same processes. Its just that the raw input is different.

Well, if all images are mental images, then I guess there's such a thing as mentality--which is not in itself physical. It does not matter if I both see and imagine by the same processes. I mean it doesn't matter as regards my topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by John, posted 12-25-2002 2:53 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by robinrohan, posted 12-25-2002 3:31 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 114 (27857)
12-25-2002 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
12-25-2002 3:29 PM


Or, John, perhaps you are saying that it doesn't matter if we call it physical or mental, it's the same thing? Is what you are saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 12-25-2002 3:29 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by John, posted 12-30-2002 4:30 PM robinrohan has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 114 (28133)
12-30-2002 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by robinrohan
12-25-2002 3:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
Or, John, perhaps you are saying that it doesn't matter if we call it physical or mental, it's the same thing? Is what you are saying?
Really, I am trying to figure out what you are calling physical and mental. You seem to be pressing some form of mind/body dualism but I can't make sense of it.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by robinrohan, posted 12-25-2002 3:31 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2002 5:57 PM John has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 114 (28138)
12-30-2002 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by John
12-30-2002 4:30 PM


John, I'm trying to figure out if there is such a thing as mentality that can be distinguished from physicality. What's so weird about that? It seems very straightforward to me.
All you keep saying is that imaginary images are produced, as far as the brain goes, in the same way that actual seeing is produced. So what? The fact that we use our eyes to see physical objects seems to me to make all the difference. But I'll waive that point. The point is that the mental image that is produced is MENTAL, not physical.
If there is mentality as well as physicality, then yes, the metaphysics involved would be dualistic. The importance of the idea is to figure out if there is a way a person might have free will. If it's all physical, then there's no free will as for as I can tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by John, posted 12-30-2002 4:30 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by forgiven, posted 12-30-2002 6:45 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 97 by John, posted 12-30-2002 11:42 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 114 (28144)
12-30-2002 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by robinrohan
12-30-2002 5:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
If there is mentality as well as physicality, then yes, the metaphysics involved would be dualistic. The importance of the idea is to figure out if there is a way a person might have free will. If it's all physical, then there's no free will as for as I can tell.
you are exactly right, for my money (and for what it's worth having my opinion concur with yours)... dunno if you're following joz and my thread on this or not

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2002 5:57 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 114 (28167)
12-30-2002 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by robinrohan
12-30-2002 5:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, I'm trying to figure out if there is such a thing as mentality that can be distinguished from physicality.
What are your most fundamental assumptions? Your answer will turn on this.
quote:
All you keep saying is that imaginary images are produced, as far as the brain goes, in the same way that actual seeing is produced. So what?
Look at the wording of your statement. "actual seeing" and "imaginary images" You've already assumed a duality.
quote:
The point is that the mental image that is produced is MENTAL, not physical.
The mental image produced when 'actually seeing' is a physical image or a mental image? And the image when seeing 'imaginary images'? I suspect you want to class the two differently and place the 'actually seeing' image as a external thing. But that image is no different from your 'imaginary image' in the way the brain forms it.
quote:
If there is mentality as well as physicality, then yes, the metaphysics involved would be dualistic.
I am sure you are aware of the nightmarish problems philosophers have had building a connection betwixt the two, assuming this is the case?
quote:
The importance of the idea is to figure out if there is a way a person might have free will.
When did this topic become about free will?
quote:
If it's all physical, then there's no free will as for as I can tell.
Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case. Even calling that nature 'physical' is loading the question a bit much me thinks.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2002 5:57 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by forgiven, posted 12-31-2002 6:48 AM John has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 114 (28180)
12-31-2002 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by John
12-30-2002 11:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
If it's all physical, then there's no free will as for as I can tell.
Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case. Even calling that nature 'physical' is loading the question a bit much me thinks.
really? i take it you can account for free will in a material universe? i'd be interested in learning how

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by John, posted 12-30-2002 11:42 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by John, posted 12-31-2002 11:03 AM forgiven has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 114 (28197)
12-31-2002 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by forgiven
12-31-2002 6:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
really? i take it you can account for free will in a material universe? i'd be interested in learning how
You really like to blur your terms, forgiven. The philosophical idea of materialism pretty much implies mechanism, but the idea of physical doesn't. Physical is just what we observe.
I said that there is a problem with free will in a physical system only if the additional condition of mechanism is included. IF mechanism is assumed everything proceeds from start to finish in lock-step. Everything can be predicted in advance. If things do not proceed in lock-step, then there are fuzzy areas where free-will might manifest. Personally, I don't care whether it does or not, but only mechanism precludes it.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by forgiven, posted 12-31-2002 6:48 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by forgiven, posted 12-31-2002 5:11 PM John has not replied
 Message 101 by forgiven, posted 12-31-2002 5:11 PM John has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 114 (28222)
12-31-2002 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by John
12-31-2002 11:03 AM


deleted duplicate post
[This message has been edited by forgiven, 12-31-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by John, posted 12-31-2002 11:03 AM John has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 114 (28223)
12-31-2002 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by John
12-31-2002 11:03 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
really? i take it you can account for free will in a material universe? i'd be interested in learning how
You really like to blur your terms, forgiven. The philosophical idea of materialism pretty much implies mechanism, but the idea of physical doesn't. Physical is just what we observe.
I said that there is a problem with free will in a physical system only if the additional condition of mechanism is included. IF mechanism is assumed everything proceeds from start to finish in lock-step. Everything can be predicted in advance. If things do not proceed in lock-step, then there are fuzzy areas where free-will might manifest. Personally, I don't care whether it does or not, but only mechanism precludes it.

in your post right above you said free will can't exist, "Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case." ... will you explain why you believe that isn't the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by John, posted 12-31-2002 11:03 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by John, posted 12-31-2002 10:49 PM forgiven has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 114 (28231)
12-31-2002 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by forgiven
12-31-2002 5:11 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
in your post right above you said free will can't exist, "Only if that physical nature is fully mechanistic and that seems to not be the case." ... will you explain why you believe that isn't the case?
Mechanism implies predictability. The two go hand in hand. But predictability breaks down under certain conditions, most notably at atomic and sub-atomic scales. Mechanism died a horrible and lingering death starting around 1900 or so. It doesn't describe the world.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by forgiven, posted 12-31-2002 5:11 PM forgiven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2003 4:12 PM John has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 114 (28365)
01-03-2003 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by John
12-31-2002 10:49 PM


Your idea about free will being somehow possible is vague.
And why would you not care? You don't care if you are a robot or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by John, posted 12-31-2002 10:49 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:01 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 114 (28387)
01-04-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by robinrohan
01-03-2003 4:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
Your idea about free will being somehow possible is vague.
Yes, but I am commenting more on the implications of mechanism on free-will than on free-will itself.
Speaking of vague ideas... the idea of free-will seems to be one of the most vague. Free-will: an agent's ability to act without the compulsions of other agents? Sentient agents only? Spiritual agents? Components of one's self? What acts? What is inside? What is out? Free-will: the absense of determinism? Only if the random is 'free-willed.' Or consider, if one reasons one's way to a conclusion does that reasoning constitute determinism?
quote:
And why would you not care? You don't care if you are a robot or not?
hmmm.... whatever the answer, I am still what I have always been.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2003 4:12 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-04-2003 3:26 AM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 114 (28395)
01-04-2003 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by John
01-04-2003 12:01 AM


So those of you who don't believe we have free will never bother putting any effort into decisions?
If we have no free will then why bother?
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:01 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by John, posted 01-04-2003 11:31 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
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