Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,569 Year: 4,826/9,624 Month: 174/427 Week: 87/85 Day: 4/20 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Freewill and hardened hearts
John
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 45 (28349)
01-03-2003 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-31-2002 2:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I didn't say God doesn't make sense, only that his ways are above our ways. If his ways were not above our ways then he would not be worthy of praise.

So you assume that God's ways are rational even though they don't make sense to us. But you formulated this idea as a REASON to worship Him. So, from a human perspective ( What other have we, right? ) we see actions that DO NOT make sense and conclude that these actions are 'above' ours and so the Actor is worthy of worship. How do we know that the actions that don't make sense to us are actually 'above' ours rather than being actions which simply don't make sense? How do we determine which nonsensical actions are 'above' ours and which are the actions of a madman, for example. It seems that we can't. And you are left with the proposition that we should worship what does not make sense. Period. If it makes no sense, then worship it. I should build a shrine to my tax paperwork.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-31-2002 2:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-03-2003 1:18 PM John has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 45 (28356)
01-03-2003 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-31-2002 2:05 PM


"His ways are above our ways!"
That would make sense for God to be that way. What doesn't make sense is when God soes things that we do not accept from our own children! When God acts petty, kills all but 8 people instead of going down to them and relying on a drunkard instead yet still leaving the Mark of Cain in the group, regretting His actions - funny from an omnipotent God, and such then I think the nature of your God, as written about in your Holy Book, is very suspect.
If your God showed mercy to all, compassion, and was a tireless teacher who came down to all of his children, not just a backwater semi-nomadic tribe, then not only would we not have these problems, but then the issue of freewill, of choosing right from wrong according to God, would not be subjected to so much human interpretation.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-31-2002 2:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 45 (28357)
01-03-2003 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by John
01-03-2003 9:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I didn't say God doesn't make sense, only that his ways are above our ways. If his ways were not above our ways then he would not be worthy of praise.

So you assume that God's ways are rational even though they don't make sense to us. But you formulated this idea as a REASON to worship Him. So, from a human perspective ( What other have we, right? ) we see actions that DO NOT make sense and conclude that these actions are 'above' ours and so the Actor is worthy of worship. How do we know that the actions that don't make sense to us are actually 'above' ours rather than being actions which simply don't make sense? How do we determine which nonsensical actions are 'above' ours and which are the actions of a madman, for example. It seems that we can't. And you are left with the proposition that we should worship what does not make sense. Period. If it makes no sense, then worship it. I should build a shrine to my tax paperwork.

Again I didn't say God doesn't make sense. First line of my post John.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by John, posted 01-03-2003 9:47 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by John, posted 01-03-2003 11:12 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 45 (28384)
01-03-2003 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by funkmasterfreaky
01-03-2003 1:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Again I didn't say God doesn't make sense. First line of my post John.
You think you didn't, funk, but it bloody well seem that way to me. That God does not make sense is deeply implied in what you did say, as I tried to outline for you. It is all in the little turn of phrase "God's ways are above our ways." I've seen this idea before. In fact, it came up frequently in the church in which I was raised. But I guess you aren't interested in explaining.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-03-2003 1:18 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:30 AM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 45 (30408)
01-28-2003 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by John
01-03-2003 11:12 PM


The fact that we are limited to a short life span, and an inability to understand anything more than the physical (which we have a minimal grasp on) makes our thinking much below that of God who created everything is eternal and has endless knowledge.
We are limited God is not, therefore God's thoughts are above our thoughts. Our inability to comprehend beyond this physical life limits us immensly.
How can we judge God's decisions if we cannot see things on the scale that he can?
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by John, posted 01-03-2003 11:12 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by John, posted 01-28-2003 8:45 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 45 (30426)
01-28-2003 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky
01-28-2003 2:30 AM


quote:
The fact that we are limited to a short life span, and an inability to understand anything more than the physical (which we have a minimal grasp on) makes our thinking much below that of God who created everything is eternal and has endless knowledge.
Assuming the existence of God, I'd say you are right. But you have to assume the existence of God. Without that assumption, the logic is meaningless.
Additionally, without being able to understand God, as you say, there really is no way to know if he is good, bad, ugly or just stupid. This is the real problem with your position. It is all assumption-- blind faith, if you will.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:30 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 5:04 PM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 45 (30463)
01-28-2003 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by John
01-28-2003 8:45 AM


I'm not assuming though John, I'm making an inference based on personal experience.
I personally cannot deny God's hand on my life when I look back. It's not a wild unbased assumption, or "blind faith".
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by John, posted 01-28-2003 8:45 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by John, posted 01-28-2003 5:48 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 45 (30469)
01-28-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky
01-28-2003 5:04 PM


quote:
I'm not assuming though John, I'm making an inference based on personal experience.
I personally cannot deny God's hand on my life when I look back. It's not a wild unbased assumption, or "blind faith".

Then it is an emotional reaction to circumstances you have been through, but this also you have denied.
ummm... unless you can demonstrate THAT God exists everything you attribute to him is based on an assumption and is 'blind faith.'
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 5:04 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 6:55 PM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 45 (30476)
01-28-2003 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by John
01-28-2003 5:48 PM


God has demonstrated to me that he exists, I don't feel I need or even can demonstrate to others that he is there. It's something God does on a personal level.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John, posted 01-28-2003 5:48 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by John, posted 01-30-2003 10:47 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 45 (30711)
01-30-2003 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky
01-28-2003 6:55 PM


quote:
God has demonstrated to me that he exists
How, funk? Something happened and you FELT like God must have done it. Am I close? This is an emotional reaction, like it or not.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 6:55 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-31-2003 4:01 PM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 45 (30879)
01-31-2003 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by John
01-30-2003 10:47 AM


God has proved himself to me, personally. If I was going on an emotion, I would think that my faith would have been destroyed by the criticism on this site alone.
I can't pin point exactly how I know that God exists, I just know beyond doubt that he does.
Kind of a substanceless answer hey
Sorry.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by John, posted 01-30-2003 10:47 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by John, posted 01-31-2003 4:25 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 31 by nator, posted 01-31-2003 11:13 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 45 (30882)
01-31-2003 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky
01-31-2003 4:01 PM


quote:
Kind of a substanceless answer hey
Well... yeah, it is. At least you realize that.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-31-2003 4:01 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by zipzip, posted 01-31-2003 5:20 PM John has replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 45 (30891)
01-31-2003 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by John
01-31-2003 4:25 PM


John, you obviously don't belief funk, and are not interested in finding out if you are missing something in life. What is the point of arguing? Either 1) you are right and he is mistaken or 2) he is right and you are totally clueless. You guys can both debate what you can read in books, but John, you have no clue about his relationship with Christ because you deny out-of-hand that it can exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by John, posted 01-31-2003 4:25 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by John, posted 01-31-2003 5:57 PM zipzip has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 45 (30895)
01-31-2003 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by zipzip
01-31-2003 5:20 PM


quote:
John, you obviously don't belief funk, and are not interested in finding out if you are missing something in life.
I believe that funk is serious. I also believe that most people who consult astrologers and fortune tellers are serious-- I was married to one such person for 12 years. But serious does not mean correct. What I want from funk, or from anyone else, is to tell me how it possible to know for sure rather than just-be-convinced like my ex and her astrology.
She convinced me, accidentally, that astrology is nonsense by asking me to help her figure out the method of casting horoscopes. I, foolish mortal that I am, tried to figure out how the astrologer's charts relate to the actual positions in the sky of the planets and constellations. Long story short, they don't correlate-- not by a lot. I don't know of anything similar I can do with religion, which makes it worse than astrology to me. It is completely untestable.
quote:
What is the point of arguing? Either 1) you are right and he is mistaken or 2) he is right and you are totally clueless.
Or 3) I am right and he is totally clueless
or 4) He is right and I am mistaken
quote:
You guys can both debate what you can read in books, but John, you have no clue about his relationship with Christ because you deny out-of-hand that it can exist.
No offense intended-- sincerely-- but this is typical knee-jerk christian garbage. I grew up christian. It was preached to me like gospel for a decade and maybe a quarter before I started to seriously question it. Even then, the question wasn't "Is there a god?" but "Which God is the right God?" This state of affairs lasted for fifteen years or so before I was forced into the realization that there really isn't a way to distiguish between the various religions. Nor can they all be right. Checkmate.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by zipzip, posted 01-31-2003 5:20 PM zipzip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by zipzip, posted 01-31-2003 10:25 PM John has replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 45 (30911)
01-31-2003 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by John
01-31-2003 5:57 PM


That's ridiculous, John. There are a lot of religions, and for the most part they are all unique. If you can't tell them apart, it is because you haven't tried hard enough (I have and I can, and there are lot of other folks who have tried and succeeded). Christianity makes specific claims that no other religion makes (whatever your stance on its specific claims).
I have known a number of (at least nominally) religious and/or Christian folks who have also been very intelligent (yes, even other academic scientists) and who find no problem with the idea of the existence of God, and quite a few who see that the Christian God fits intimately with Universe they see. I do know that there is a lot more to the world than what I can see with my eyes -- to say that there is not (as you do -- at least implicitly) seems like hubris (physicists may predict 10 spatial dimensions ... I can "see" 3 and sense a 4th through changes in the 3, but nobody can yet sense, measure, or has any idea what goes on in the other 6 if they exist as predicted).
"No offense intended-- sincerely-- but this is typical knee-jerk christian garbage. I grew up christian. It was preached to me like gospel for a decade and maybe a quarter before I started to seriously question it. Even then, the question wasn't "Is there a god?" but "Which God is the right God?" This state of affairs lasted for fifteen years or so before I was forced into the realization that there really isn't a way to distiguish between the various religions. Nor can they all be right. Checkmate."
About your formative years, John, nobody "grows up Christian". It sounds like your parents were Christian (at least nominally) and/or you went to church when you were younger. When you got to be old enough to make your own decisions, it sounds like you decided that you didn't need God, and cast off your parents' tutelage.
Everybody has to have their own relationship with God, and nobody can do it for you, not even your parents. It is a personal relationship that requires love and obedience on our part and one of the rewards is faith (another is the presence of the Holy Spirit). It also requires doubt (including self-doubt) and diligent introspection -- every Christian questions his or her faith, and nobody who hasn't ever becomes a Christian.
My personal realization of my need for Christ came about in my mid 20's, when I realized that I could not save myself, and that I saw no meaning in my life apart from Christ (not money, or success, or women, or anything seemed to mean anything in the context of eternal death). About the only thing that came close was the purpose I got from medicine, but even that was predicated on there being an absolute purpose or greater good that honestly seemed (and seems) tailor-made by Christ, the great physician.
John, there is (only) one way to figure it out and find out for yourself. Ask God to help you see him, and ask him to show himself to you, and perhaps more importantly to show you your need for him. Then sincerely look. If you sincerely desire to know him, the Bible says God will make himself known to you. Perhaps he will show himself to you in a physically measureable 'miracle' such as one described in the Bible. Perhaps not; I do not doubt that he will show himself to you if you ask sincerely, however.
Think of it this way: It may be that just because you haven't felt his presence doesn't mean that nobody else has. Maybe the Holy Spirit is a real presence and can interact with human beings who acknowledge Christ -- maybe the happenings of Pentecost were real, and the acts of the Apostles, and the works of Christ. Maybe ... and my point is not to give you a chance to say "maybe not" but to get you to agree that "maybe". Maybe you don't know everything, John. Let's hope anyway that you are fallable, because the Universe sure sounds like an awful, bleak, and hopeless place if you are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by John, posted 01-31-2003 5:57 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 01-31-2003 11:39 PM zipzip has replied
 Message 33 by John, posted 02-01-2003 11:46 AM zipzip has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024