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Author Topic:   The Bible on Human Waste and Carcasses
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 27 (282024)
01-27-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
01-27-2006 4:21 PM


Another question is whether burying waste was practiced at the time of the Babylonian Empire, when much of the Old Testament was written; it wouldn't be surprising if the writers would include anachronisms in their creation myths.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 27 (282830)
01-31-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Chiroptera
01-27-2006 4:35 PM


Evolution of Sewage Treatment
This article, Domestic wastewater treatment in the ancient world, 3500 B.C.E to 500 C. E., shows that dealing with sewage was not ignored in the ancient world.
In the Egyptian city of Herakopolis (B.C.E. 2100), the average person treated their wastes much like those in Ur, they threw the wastes into the streets. However, “in the elite and religious quarters, there was a deliberate effort made to remove all wastes, organic and inorganic to locations outside the living and/or communal areas, which usually meant the rivers.”
Which would cover the timeframe when tradition says the laws were written.
I haven't been able to find anymore on ancient armies.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 18 of 27 (282879)
01-31-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
01-27-2006 4:21 PM


I'll dig further to see what I can find. I don't have a linkable answer (yet), but I do remember Egypt (the world power at the time) used human fecal matter in some of their medical practices; so its safe to assume their other sanitation techniques were pretty terrible or nonexistant.

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men
Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?

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w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 19 of 27 (329681)
07-07-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
01-17-2006 8:13 AM


Another Possibility
purpledawn writes:
Many times people have commented that the Bible laws concerning health and the environment were ahead of their time. I contend that they are not.
I would like to discuss two specific laws that are usually brought up as evidence of foreknowledge or divine inspiration.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that the dietary and sanitary laws of Israel do not contain information that was unavailable to other nations of the time, and I would like to hear what you think of my reason why.
If the Bible is true, then evolution did not occur and man was created with all the same physical and mental capacities which we possess today. (Gen 1-2)
If the Bible is true, then all men are descended from a just man who communicated directly with God on multiple occasions. (Gen 6:9, 6:13, 7:1, 8:15, 9:1, and 10:32)
If the Bible is true, then all of the dietary and sanitary laws that the Israelites were required to follow came from God Himself. (Lev 11:1)
If the Bible is true, then all the nations existing at the time of the writing of Leviticus could have had access to any scientific knowledge which Noah had passed down to them as a result of his walk with God.
Therefore, if the Bible is true, then as we study history, we should expect to find that many other nations would have dietary and sanitary laws similar to those found in the Bible. We could, perhaps, speculate that some nations would have discarded some of their dietary and sanitary habits over a period of time, but we would probably still expect to find some remnant of evidence that such nations had better knowledge of diet and sanitation in their past.
Thus I would agree with you that God did not present any scientific information to the Israelites that was not in some way available (though possibly dificult to find) to all other nations of that time.
Edited by w_fortenberry, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 27 (329718)
07-07-2006 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by w_fortenberry
07-07-2006 7:42 PM


Re: Another Possibility
If the Bible is true, then evolution did not occur and man was created with all the same physical and mental capacities which we possess today. (Gen 1-2)
uh, no. genesis 3 clearly describes how man gained something that makes us what we are today. unless you propose that the effects of the tree of life are not hereditary (but this is a far from standard reading).
Therefore, if the Bible is true, then as we study history, we should expect to find that many other nations would have dietary and sanitary laws similar to those found in the Bible.
again, not quite. the levitical kosher laws were given specifically to the jews. the law was given specifically to set the jews apart from their heathen neighbors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by w_fortenberry, posted 07-07-2006 7:42 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
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w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 21 of 27 (329927)
07-08-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by arachnophilia
07-07-2006 10:54 PM


Re: Another Possibility
arachnophilia writes:
uh, no. genesis 3 clearly describes how man gained something that makes us what we are today.
Actually, I just posted an answer to this comment on another thread.
arachnophilia writes:
again, not quite. the levitical kosher laws were given specifically to the jews. the law was given specifically to set the jews apart from their heathen neighbors.
A very important clarification. Thank you. I was focusing on the scientific aspects of the law and neglected to mention that certain religious aspects would probably remain peculiar to the nation of Israel. Thank you for the correction.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 22 of 27 (329933)
07-08-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by w_fortenberry
07-07-2006 7:42 PM


Re: Another Possibility
If the bible is false, we could expect that many nations that have a lick of sense would have sanitary laws, because those that didn't would die out pretty damn quick.
And, since the various civilizations did not have the same kind of dietary laws, from your logic, then the bible is false.
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by w_fortenberry, posted 07-07-2006 7:42 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
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w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 23 of 27 (329966)
07-08-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ramoss
07-08-2006 8:20 PM


Re: Another Possibility
ramoss writes:
If the bible is false, we could expect that many nations that have a lick of sense would have sanitary laws, because those that didn't would die out pretty damn quick.
That is not a valid conclusion. You cannot logically draw a positive conclusion from a negative premise. Your statement here would be similar to me claiming that if money doesn't grow on trees, then we could expect it to grow on cars. You see, I am drawing a positive conclusion from a negative premise, and it just doesn't work. To properly come to the positive conclusion that we could expect money to grow on cars, I must start with a positive premise or premises such as the following.
Money grows on things that contain metal.
All cars contain metal.
Therefore, we could expect to find money to grow on cars.
Of course, in this case my premises are false thus making my conclusion valid but false. The goal of deductive reasoning is to arrive at a conclusion which is both valid and true.
To parallel this syllogism about money to my statements about the Bible, I would change it in the following ways.
If money grew on things that contained metal,
And if all cars contained metal,
Then we could expect money to grow on cars.
Notice that here I have at least two positive premises leading to a valid and true positive conclusion. My statements about the dietary and sanitary laws in the Bible were arranged in just this way. The conclusion that I arrived at is both valid and true.
Now, just as I changed my syllogism about money, you can also change your statement to make it valid. For instance, you could say...
The Bible is always false.
The Bible makes ____________ claim.
Therefore, __________ claim is false.
This would be a valid syllogism. I would, of course, argue the truth of your premises, but I would not deny that you had arrived at a valid conclusion based on those premises.
You could even arrange your comments so that I could not argue against either the truth or the validity of your conclusion. You could say...
The Bible makes __________ claim.
If the Bible were always false,
Then _________ claim would be false.
If you were to phrase your statement thus, then it would be both valid and true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2006 8:20 PM ramoss has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 27 (330017)
07-09-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by w_fortenberry
07-08-2006 7:56 PM


Re: Another Possibility
uh, no. genesis 3 clearly describes how man gained something that makes us what we are today.
Actually, I just posted an answer to this comment on another thread.
from that thread:
quote:
Actually, the Bible never states that Adam and Eve gained a knowledge of good and evil by eating from the tree. The only knowledge that they gained from their experience was a knowledge of their nakedness (Gen 3:7). It is my personal opinion that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was so called because its very presence gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and evil.
this is not accurate either. when god banishes them from the garden, he says:
quote:
Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;
they did not know good and evil before they ate. the tree changed them, according to god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by w_fortenberry, posted 07-08-2006 7:56 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 25 of 27 (330050)
07-09-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by w_fortenberry
07-08-2006 9:35 PM


Re: Another Possibility
No, what it woudl do is that 'based on this premise, the bible would be false, so the bible being true and the premise are mutually exclusive.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 27 (330129)
07-09-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by w_fortenberry
07-07-2006 7:42 PM


Bible: Many Authors
quote:
I wholeheartedly agree with you that the dietary and sanitary laws of Israel do not contain information that was unavailable to other nations of the time, and I would like to hear what you think of my reason why.
I'm glad you agree, but not sure your rational works the way you have it written.
quote:
If the Bible is true...
By true, I'm assuming you mean if it is in accordance with fact and not false.
Since the Bible is made up of various types of writings, IMO, it is not wise to base a conclusion on whether the Bible, as a whole, is true. Are songs true, is fiction true, are parables true, etc.? Songs may reflect the feelings of the time, but not necessarily factual events.
Supposedly after David slew the Philistine (Goliath - 1 Samuel 18:7) the women sang "Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousand." He'd actually only slain one man. Although songs are inspired by reality, unfortunately they can't always be taken at face value.
Job is a fictional writing and the words of wisdom were probably true in their time and some have withstood the test of time.
Personally, I don't think the Hebrews classified their writings like we do today. IMO, they mixed their facts with fiction.
quote:
If the Bible is true, then evolution did not occur and man was created with all the same physical and mental capacities which we possess today. (Gen 1-2)
Genesis 1 and 2 have different authors. (Documentary Hypothesis) So if Genesis 2 was true, then snakes would still talk, but I understand what you're trying to say.
quote:
If the Bible is true, then all of the dietary and sanitary laws that the Israelites were required to follow came from God Himself. (Lev 11:1)
If Leviticus was truly written at the time of Moses and came from God, then King David and Bathsheba would have been killed for adultery.
Lev 20:10
'If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus was probably written about or after 722BCE. (Documentary Hypothesis) But again I understand what you are saying if Leviticus was true about the circumstances of how the laws came to be.
quote:
If the Bible is true, then all the nations existing at the time of the writing of Leviticus could have had access to any scientific knowledge which Noah had passed down to them as a result of his walk with God.
Except that the premise by most is that God gave the info to Moses, not Noah. Those contending that the laws were ahead of their time don't feel that they existed before the time that Moses supposedly received them.
quote:
Therefore, if the Bible is true, then as we study history, we should expect to find that many other nations would have dietary and sanitary laws similar to those found in the Bible. We could, perhaps, speculate that some nations would have discarded some of their dietary and sanitary habits over a period of time, but we would probably still expect to find some remnant of evidence that such nations had better knowledge of diet and sanitation in their past.
I'm not sure I understand what you're going for here. I'm not sure how the truthfulness of the Bible effects the sanitary conditions of other nations. I'm probably reading it wrong.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 27 (330226)
07-10-2006 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by purpledawn
07-09-2006 4:37 PM


Re: Bible: Many Authors
So if Genesis 2 was true, then snakes would still talk, but I understand what you're trying to say.
no no, they're currently orally occupied. you think the author wouldn't think of that?
If Leviticus was truly written at the time of Moses and came from God, then King David and Bathsheba would have been killed for adultery.
...david's the king. that's a bit like arresting the president. it doesn't really ever happen.
Except that the premise by most is that God gave the info to Moses, not Noah.
well, moses AND ezra, who had his scribes re-compiled the text from memory/divine inspiration.
Those contending that the laws were ahead of their time don't feel that they existed before the time that Moses supposedly received them.
generally. not many people subscribe to the whole "adam wrote a chapter, and noah worte a chapter..." idea. it's a little, well, TOO preposterous. when asked to write the story of his life, noah could only fill three chapters? really?


This message is a reply to:
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