Political Identity Crisis

Also, take health-care costs. One of the main reasons health care costs rose so much is because of the insurance industry. What happened is there is now an extra layer of corporate beaurocracy that has to be paid, and extra paperwork, claims, etc,...and as this was laid on top of existing costs, the costs skyrocketed. The same level of health care now included a ton of more work and services and so the costs rose.They also rose because insurance increased demand, and you may say, yea, that's good because more people could get health service, but often the demand is not really effective and necessary. I can't tell you as a parent how many parents rush to the doctor for every little cold their kid has "because, you know, it might be strep", but when they don't have insurance, they stay home unless it really is strep or something worse.Are their children any better off rushing to the doctor because the insurance pays either way?No, they are not. Plus the increased costs due to the insurance program has resulted in millions of middle class families doing without insurance, not because they are poor but because they are not poor and do noy qualify for free insurance (medicare).Another harmful effect to the insurance system is that now doctors don't always make the best decision they would make for the patient because the insurance company (HMO) won't pay for it, and doctors that go ahead anyway are under pressure from the HMO or insurance program to change their treatment. It's a corrupting influence in the profession, making a profession a business.So really, in the case of medicine, socialism as you put it, is all about transferring power to corporate and state interests and away from the professionals qualified to make the best decisions.One last point, a lot of patients before insurance was widespread were treated for free, about 20%. That was just how doctors did it in many areas. My father and grandfather were both doctors in NC, and they treated people when they could not pay, and sometimes people gave them farm stuff like produce, or a ham, or even moonshine (though my Dad didn't drink it) or something like that, sometimes for years even in appreciation of their work. So it's not like in those times that people did not get care. The insurance system, overall imo, has not really served people better. There are still people outside the system, but the insurance companies aren't going to treat them for free, and the costs have risen dramatically.

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Why do you need to choose a label? How about just considering yourself an independent, and voting on each issue and each candidate on the merits?
  —"nwr"

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Well, the label itself isn't important. When it comes to actually voting on each issue and candidate, I plan to do as you say. I plan to register as an independent.

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For myself, I don't think libertarianism works. It seems to be based on a romanticized idea about people that does not correspond to the way people really behave.
  —"nwr"

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This is the biggest problem I have with libertarianism. It just seems out of touch with reality in some aspects. Beyond the issue of civil rights, I don't find much agreement within that framework.I must say, however, that socialism presents some problems of it's own, which you pointed out.Edit: I can see now that I was looking at socialism purely from the view of the state, which I thought was somewhat neccesary. It appears that isn't the case, so it was a misunderstanding on my part.This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:34 PMThis message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:34 PMThis message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:35 PMThis message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:36 PMThis message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 09:24 PM

Heh. I'm sure that you have a point that you're trying to make, but I bet it's off topic for this thread.At any rate, I hope that you have been well, iano. Unfortunately, I haven't been reading the threads on which you have been active.Added by edit:On the other hand, it appears that this thread is being derailed into another "Socialism: good or bad, and does anyone even know what the word means?" thread.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 26-Jan-2006 01:55 AM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Another thing to consider is the republican move to HMO's also meant that the industry moved from a non-profit format to a business - CEO makes a ton of money - format.

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Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

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Thanks for the link. Filled it out and the results wereEconomic Left/Right: - 7.63Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: - 7.95I'm in the libertarian left and seem to favor "voluntary regional collectivism" according to the chart. Seems about right to me. Maybe there wasn't as big a conflict as I thought.

Well, as far as the current political landscape goes, i'll be backing the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. I'm open to voting for a Republican candidate, but they would have to be pretty different from the current status quo.

Forgive the bare links Someone to think about in the future.http://EvC Forum: Russ Feingold or The 2008 Presidential Candidate Thread -->EvC Forum: Russ Feingold or The 2008 Presidential Candidate Threadhttp://feingold.senate.gov/
http://www.russforpresident.com/
http://www.draftruss.com/

One of the important voting principles is "throw the rascals out". If the candidates are all pretty bad, then vote against the incumbent.

Right, but suppose he works 2 years and then is permanently disabled. Now, he draws SS for life. Over the rest of his life he makes way more than the $6000 he's paid so far.It's insurance, not retirement. You just said that you supported insurance. It's not for retirees. It's insurance for all workers.

I don't get it. Insurance companies were non-profit in your book?

I didn't say I supported insurance for the record, and why should those least able to pay high taxes be slapped with such a high tax bill? You think private insurance and retirement plans would cost as much as 15% of one's earning power?Gimme a break. It's a big rip-off of the American worker foisted on him by liberal democrats that suck up the retirement funds of poor people and spend it on government programs.

Oh, I think they'd cost much, much more. In fact, it's proven that they would cost much, much more. Social Security is the most cost-effective way to provide what it provides.

Actually, everybody is. Studies prove that the more often people see the doctor early on - something they can only afford to do if they're insulated from the health care costs - the cheaper health care becomes for all the rest of it.Which makes quite a bit of sense. The vast majority of medical conditions are such that they can be treated a lot more cheaply, or even prevented, by early detection and diagnosis. But doctors can't diagnose via ESP. Your plan, which leaves people out in the cold until the last possible minute, means that conditions aren't treated until they become serious, which means a lot more expense for you and I to shoulder.More people going to the doctor actually drives costs down, not up. It's a lot cheaper to treat a heart attack by preventing it with medication than by a 6-hour laproscopic surgery. Early detection, which can only happen when people are insulated from medical costs, means that we all shoulder a lot less expense. And people are healthier, too.Canada has universal health care; as a result they spend one-sixth of what we spend per capita, while consistently delivering superior medical care, because people can afford to go to the doctor when they start to get sick as opposed to when they can't ignore it any longer.

i like that barak obama guy.

i like mccain well enough. at least he has his own balls. i also like powell. same reason.