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Author Topic:   Are some world views as valid as others?
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 18 (28025)
12-28-2002 12:26 PM


If it turns out that there are many self justifying worldviews that are completely irrefutable instead of just one, then there can be no damnation since who’s to say which one you should choose? So, for damnation to be justified, there must be only one possible justifiable worldview.
So, to be a Christian, if you believe that the bible preaches damnation (sorry to those who don’t), you HAVE to say, my worldview is the only justifiable world view and therefore if you don’t have my world view, you will all be damned, or else, if you doubt your own world view, then you yourself are damned.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-28-2002 2:00 PM Gzus has replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 18 (28030)
12-28-2002 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-28-2002 12:26 PM


Two questions/statements in reply:
1) Why can't there multiple mutually-exclusive self-justifying worldviews of which only one can be true? If on an exam there are 5 multiple choice answers to a logic question (to which I do not immediately know the answer because of insufficient knowledge perhaps), that does not rule out the possibility that one of these answers is true.
2) You make an interesting point that Christianity is mutually exclusive of all other worldviews, because it states plainly that Christ is "the [only] way, the [only] truth, and the [only] life." That is a hard thing for many people to swallow, since almost all other religions I know of (with the exception of Judaism and Islam, which are obviously related) are doctrinally tolerant and inclusive of other religious views.
This has always seemed to me to be a strong point with Christianity. I would expect truth (if it exists) to be exclusive of falsehood. Otherwise, what is the point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-28-2002 12:26 PM Gzus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Gzus, posted 12-28-2002 2:24 PM zipzip has not replied
 Message 5 by forgiven, posted 12-28-2002 4:45 PM zipzip has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 18 (28032)
12-28-2002 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by zipzip
12-28-2002 2:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Two questions/statements in reply:
1) Why can't there multiple mutually-exclusive self-justifying worldviews of which only one can be true? If on an exam there are 5 multiple choice answers to a logic question (to which I do not immediately know the answer because of insufficient knowledge perhaps), that does not rule out the possibility that one of these answers is true.

Yes, ok, one of them might be true. But how do you choose? you revise for the exam, i.e. you should already know the answer so in that sense your analogy is flawed. I can still punish you If you get the answer wrong because you didn’t revise. But with self-justifying world views, there is no way of ‘revising’ for the test and so, if I get the answer wrong, how can a moral god punish me?
quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:

2) You make an interesting point that Christianity is mutually exclusive of all other worldviews, because it states plainly that Christ is "the [only] way, the [only] truth, and the [only] life." That is a hard thing for many people to swallow, since almost all other religions I know of (with the exception of Judaism and Islam, which are obviously related) are doctrinally tolerant and inclusive of other religious views.
This has always seemed to me to be a strong point with Christianity. I would expect truth (if it exists) to be exclusive of falsehood. Otherwise, what is the point?

No, it is in fact it’s weakest point. It first says that it is the only correct world view and then (quite conveniently) forgets to prove to us why it should be regarded more highly than other equally arrogant views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-28-2002 2:00 PM zipzip has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 18 (28037)
12-28-2002 4:37 PM


in the last post on another thread you said, "fine, you win"... it isn't about winning or losing... it's about honesty, it's about sincerely looking at what we believe and being willing to change our minds if and when we become convinced that what we believe is irrational
why not just say what it is you believe? what is the core foundation of your worldview? are you a materialist? what are your thoughts on things like the mind, free will, ethics, morality, logic? do only those things that can be empirically verified actually exist, or is there more to life (and the universe) than the material?
it isn't enough to know what we believe, we should also try to understand why we believe what we believe... we should have enough intellectual honesty to examine our beliefs and be willing to abandon those that can't stand up to the light of reason... it isn't enough to merely say that another's beliefs are inconsistent, we should be able to show why and how they are...

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 18 (28038)
12-28-2002 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by zipzip
12-28-2002 2:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Two questions/statements in reply:
1) Why can't there multiple mutually-exclusive self-justifying worldviews of which only one can be true? If on an exam there are 5 multiple choice answers to a logic question (to which I do not immediately know the answer because of insufficient knowledge perhaps), that does not rule out the possibility that one of these answers is true.
2) You make an interesting point that Christianity is mutually exclusive of all other worldviews, because it states plainly that Christ is "the [only] way, the [only] truth, and the [only] life." That is a hard thing for many people to swallow, since almost all other religions I know of (with the exception of Judaism and Islam, which are obviously related) are doctrinally tolerant and inclusive of other religious views.
This has always seemed to me to be a strong point with Christianity. I would expect truth (if it exists) to be exclusive of falsehood. Otherwise, what is the point?

i agree... christianity stands or falls on the person of Christ and nothing else... he died, was buried, and arose, and this is something that causes demons to gnash their teeth... those who hate God will use all the weapons they have against anyone who says those things
i truly believe that those who are lost *hate* to hear the gospel message... it causes an emotional surge of bile within them...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-28-2002 2:00 PM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Gzus, posted 12-29-2002 9:47 AM forgiven has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 18 (28052)
12-29-2002 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by forgiven
12-28-2002 4:45 PM


It is not true that I hate the gospel. To hate anything is, I find, rather unnecessary and meaningless. When I said ‘fine, you win’. What I am conveying, quite honestly to you is that you have a point. There can be self-justifying worldviews and within those views, my ‘how are we justified argument’ does not stand (although I’m not 100% sure). But, on the subject of hate. I dislike the idea of damnation, I find it unfounded and ‘wrong’ that a god can punish us for not choosing a ‘path’ which we are under no reasonable obligation to choose. How can he punish people for doubting if he doesn’t provide us with concrete evidence of his existence and the exact details of it, i.e. Judaism or Christianity? This is a great injustice, and it’s no use using the clay and the potter argument, because we don’t even know if there is a potter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by forgiven, posted 12-28-2002 4:45 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 10:40 AM Gzus has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 18 (28057)
12-29-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Gzus
12-29-2002 9:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
It is not true that I hate the gospel. To hate anything is, I find, rather unnecessary and meaningless. When I said ‘fine, you win’. What I am conveying, quite honestly to you is that you have a point. There can be self-justifying worldviews and within those views, my ‘how are we justified argument’ does not stand (although I’m not 100% sure). But, on the subject of hate. I dislike the idea of damnation, I find it unfounded and ‘wrong’ that a god can punish us for not choosing a ‘path’ which we are under no reasonable obligation to choose. How can he punish people for doubting if he doesn’t provide us with concrete evidence of his existence and the exact details of it, i.e. Judaism or Christianity? This is a great injustice, and it’s no use using the clay and the potter argument, because we don’t even know if there is a potter.
ok, thanks for this reply.. it helps some... let me try to paraphrase what you said to see if i understand, and you can correct me if i'm wrong
you don't like the idea of damnation because you think it's wrong for anyone to be punished for not believing something that God should make obviously true to us... you think God should show us concrete evidence that he exists
i think those are reasonable objections... i do think that on the subject of evidence, sometimes man's heart is so hardened against God that he rejects evidence that would normally be accepted... as Jesus said, there are some who wouldn't believe in him even if they saw the dead rise... so evidence, and the kind that is acceptable, is related to how strong a person's presuppositions are
we all, on some level, dislike the idea of damnation... we don't know what it means for one thing, we don't know why it's necessary for another... what follows is my understanding of these things, but remember they're only mine... other christians might think differently... in the end it comes down to what God has revealed in the scriptures, and what we believe he's shown us about himself
let me start with a couple of definitions... when i speak of "life" i mean "existence in God's presence"... "death" is "existence separated from God"... ok? so "heaven" is a place where life exists, "hell" is a place where death exists... to be eternally blessed is to live, it is to be in heaven, it is to be in God's presence... to be damned is to die, it is to be in hell, it is to be eternally apart from God
why is it necessary? man just doesn't understand the seriousness of sin... we never really will, while alive... what i'm about to write is the truth, ok? i'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about it, i'm especially not going to argue with other christians about it... to understand the things you've mentioned, this must be grasped
God is perfect in all his ways, all his attributes... man is created in his image... we are capable of all things God is capable of, we just aren't perfect in our attributes nor do we have those attributes to anything approaching the degree to which God has them...
it goes further than that... if we say that we can love, God is love... if we say we can create, God is Creator... we can use logic, God is logic... we can do good, he is good... see? he is the embodiment of his attributes, he doesn't merely possess them.. and when we speak of sin we must remember that while we are capable of holy acts, God IS holy
now we have this perfectly holy being... he loves us so much that he had to take on human form to sacrifice himself for us... he did this because he HATES sin, and because he knew that sin would keep us apart from him for eternity... we would be in hell, we would be "dead"...
sin won't be in heaven.. sin is a disease that kills the spirit of man and corrupts the material world... sin is cured by two things... the sacrifice of Jesus and our belief in the sufficiency of that sacrifice...
you ask how he can punish us for doubting... in the final analysis that's *all* we will be punished for... for not trusting him... but he has given us more than enough evidence that he exists and that he is trustworthy... think about it a minute, ok?... i'm not a foolish man... i have what i believe to be an average intelligence... i see the same things you see, i hear the same things you hear... yet i believe and you don't... why is that? why can i look at creation and see God's work while you can't? how can i read about Jesus of Nazareth and say "this is true" while you can't?
i see evidence of God all around me and you don't... are you smarter than i? possibly you are... do you have a firmer grasp on reality than i? possibly you do... but i'd like for you to entertain the notion that it's also possible that you see the same things i see, you hear what i hear, you even (somewhere inside) believe some of the things i believe... but you push it away, you deny the evidences you do have and say "it isn't enough"... is that possibly true?
i believe God has given me an ability to explain the gospel message to people... there's nothing i like better than taking some of the new testament and helping others understand the meaning and application of it... this doesn't mean that i have all the answers or even that what i believe to be true is in fact true, completely true... but if you have questions on the new testament or on Jesus or on christianity, i promise i'll do the best i can to answer them
all i ask is that you take the time to try and understand what i say before rejecting it out of hand... and the best thing you can do is ask me where to find whatever it is i try to teach, go to the source and read it for yourself, and see what you get from it... there's power in the word of God, enough power to give life where there was death and to give understanding where there was confusion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Gzus, posted 12-29-2002 9:47 AM Gzus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Gzus, posted 12-29-2002 11:02 AM forgiven has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 18 (28060)
12-29-2002 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by forgiven
12-29-2002 10:40 AM


Well, Forgiven.
Do not think that I am ignorant in the details of your belief. To be truthful, I was once a Christian, sort of, but that was when I was about 15. My mother even took me to the states a couple of times, to all sorts of conventions etc.. But Christianity is, in a nutshell, a ‘leap of faith’.
‘He has given us more than enough evidence that he exists’
But the evidence that you speak of does not ‘prove’ his existence just as 1 million Boyle’s law experiments do not necessarily prove Boyle’s law. It at most makes his existence a possibility. You can never present an argument that would make the existence of God irrefutable and the bible even states this (although I can’t remember where). Everything that you say based on scripture is, therefore, weakened by doubt and the greatest weakness is damnation. The only way that damnation can be justified is if it is made possible for people to put forward an irrefutable argument that shows that God is true. But is that possible? I don’t think so, and so, I am relieved in that whatever path I choose, I will not be punished by a moral God, until he proves his existence to me.
But then comes the question, is God a moral God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 10:40 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 4:05 PM Gzus has not replied
 Message 10 by zipzip, posted 12-29-2002 9:53 PM Gzus has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 18 (28070)
12-29-2002 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gzus
12-29-2002 11:02 AM


^^^^^
ok

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Gzus, posted 12-29-2002 11:02 AM Gzus has not replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 18 (28080)
12-29-2002 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gzus
12-29-2002 11:02 AM


If you haven't had a chance yet, read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I think this book would address your questions well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Gzus, posted 12-29-2002 11:02 AM Gzus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 6:52 AM zipzip has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 18 (28096)
12-30-2002 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by zipzip
12-29-2002 9:53 PM


Better still, could you explain the gist of it to me, I don’t have the time to read any more books right now, I’m studying for my International Baccalaureate exams.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by zipzip, posted 12-29-2002 9:53 PM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:42 AM Gzus has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 18 (28098)
12-30-2002 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Gzus
12-30-2002 6:52 AM


Mere Christianity is an excellent book, it is also a very short book and would not take too much of your time to read.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 6:52 AM Gzus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 3:08 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 18 (28123)
12-30-2002 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 7:42 AM


Even if I did read the book, I still don’t see how my argument can be refuted. If you look at the dogmatic argument I posted in my topic ‘Gzusianism’, I can make another completely irrefutable dogmatic argument by saying that the earth was created at 12:01 European continental time or as Coragyps said, 8:45 Hawaiian standard time. Now what if, on top of all of that, each of the dogmas were to say ‘choose me or I will damn you’. How are they justified in damning you since you have no way of knowing which one of them, if any, are true? That is of course assuming that ‘God’ is a moral God which is true in Christianity’s case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:42 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 3:46 PM Gzus has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 18 (28126)
12-30-2002 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Gzus
12-30-2002 3:08 PM


Umm we're not damning you. Who's damning you? From what I know of my own faith it is an individuals choice to be close to God or to reject him. I don't see where God or his people are damning you.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Gzus, posted 12-30-2002 3:08 PM Gzus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Gzus, posted 12-31-2002 9:10 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 18 (28185)
12-31-2002 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 3:46 PM


Which God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 3:46 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:32 AM Gzus has replied

  
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