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Author Topic:   Are some world views as valid as others?
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 18 (28025)
12-28-2002 12:26 PM


If it turns out that there are many self justifying worldviews that are completely irrefutable instead of just one, then there can be no damnation since who’s to say which one you should choose? So, for damnation to be justified, there must be only one possible justifiable worldview.
So, to be a Christian, if you believe that the bible preaches damnation (sorry to those who don’t), you HAVE to say, my worldview is the only justifiable world view and therefore if you don’t have my world view, you will all be damned, or else, if you doubt your own world view, then you yourself are damned.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-28-2002 2:00 PM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 18 (28032)
12-28-2002 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by zipzip
12-28-2002 2:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Two questions/statements in reply:
1) Why can't there multiple mutually-exclusive self-justifying worldviews of which only one can be true? If on an exam there are 5 multiple choice answers to a logic question (to which I do not immediately know the answer because of insufficient knowledge perhaps), that does not rule out the possibility that one of these answers is true.

Yes, ok, one of them might be true. But how do you choose? you revise for the exam, i.e. you should already know the answer so in that sense your analogy is flawed. I can still punish you If you get the answer wrong because you didn’t revise. But with self-justifying world views, there is no way of ‘revising’ for the test and so, if I get the answer wrong, how can a moral god punish me?
quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:

2) You make an interesting point that Christianity is mutually exclusive of all other worldviews, because it states plainly that Christ is "the [only] way, the [only] truth, and the [only] life." That is a hard thing for many people to swallow, since almost all other religions I know of (with the exception of Judaism and Islam, which are obviously related) are doctrinally tolerant and inclusive of other religious views.
This has always seemed to me to be a strong point with Christianity. I would expect truth (if it exists) to be exclusive of falsehood. Otherwise, what is the point?

No, it is in fact it’s weakest point. It first says that it is the only correct world view and then (quite conveniently) forgets to prove to us why it should be regarded more highly than other equally arrogant views.

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 Message 2 by zipzip, posted 12-28-2002 2:00 PM zipzip has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 18 (28052)
12-29-2002 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by forgiven
12-28-2002 4:45 PM


It is not true that I hate the gospel. To hate anything is, I find, rather unnecessary and meaningless. When I said ‘fine, you win’. What I am conveying, quite honestly to you is that you have a point. There can be self-justifying worldviews and within those views, my ‘how are we justified argument’ does not stand (although I’m not 100% sure). But, on the subject of hate. I dislike the idea of damnation, I find it unfounded and ‘wrong’ that a god can punish us for not choosing a ‘path’ which we are under no reasonable obligation to choose. How can he punish people for doubting if he doesn’t provide us with concrete evidence of his existence and the exact details of it, i.e. Judaism or Christianity? This is a great injustice, and it’s no use using the clay and the potter argument, because we don’t even know if there is a potter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by forgiven, posted 12-28-2002 4:45 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 10:40 AM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 18 (28060)
12-29-2002 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by forgiven
12-29-2002 10:40 AM


Well, Forgiven.
Do not think that I am ignorant in the details of your belief. To be truthful, I was once a Christian, sort of, but that was when I was about 15. My mother even took me to the states a couple of times, to all sorts of conventions etc.. But Christianity is, in a nutshell, a ‘leap of faith’.
‘He has given us more than enough evidence that he exists’
But the evidence that you speak of does not ‘prove’ his existence just as 1 million Boyle’s law experiments do not necessarily prove Boyle’s law. It at most makes his existence a possibility. You can never present an argument that would make the existence of God irrefutable and the bible even states this (although I can’t remember where). Everything that you say based on scripture is, therefore, weakened by doubt and the greatest weakness is damnation. The only way that damnation can be justified is if it is made possible for people to put forward an irrefutable argument that shows that God is true. But is that possible? I don’t think so, and so, I am relieved in that whatever path I choose, I will not be punished by a moral God, until he proves his existence to me.
But then comes the question, is God a moral God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 10:40 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by forgiven, posted 12-29-2002 4:05 PM Gzus has not replied
 Message 10 by zipzip, posted 12-29-2002 9:53 PM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 18 (28096)
12-30-2002 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by zipzip
12-29-2002 9:53 PM


Better still, could you explain the gist of it to me, I don’t have the time to read any more books right now, I’m studying for my International Baccalaureate exams.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by zipzip, posted 12-29-2002 9:53 PM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:42 AM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 18 (28123)
12-30-2002 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 7:42 AM


Even if I did read the book, I still don’t see how my argument can be refuted. If you look at the dogmatic argument I posted in my topic ‘Gzusianism’, I can make another completely irrefutable dogmatic argument by saying that the earth was created at 12:01 European continental time or as Coragyps said, 8:45 Hawaiian standard time. Now what if, on top of all of that, each of the dogmas were to say ‘choose me or I will damn you’. How are they justified in damning you since you have no way of knowing which one of them, if any, are true? That is of course assuming that ‘God’ is a moral God which is true in Christianity’s case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:42 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 3:46 PM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 18 (28185)
12-31-2002 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 3:46 PM


Which God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 3:46 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:32 AM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 18 (31460)
02-05-2003 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky
01-28-2003 2:32 AM


How do you know there's only one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:32 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 18 (31461)
02-05-2003 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky
01-28-2003 2:32 AM


You can't possibly be telling me that you can prove the existence of just one God!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-28-2003 2:32 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
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