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Author Topic:   John could I talk to you?
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Message 84 of 92 (27689)
12-22-2002 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Gzus
12-22-2002 5:05 PM

Originally posted by Gzus:
But who says randomness is free? randomness is bounded by the law of randomness, it is unfree in the sense that it does not choose to be random but just 'is'. if the human mind is explained statistically through randomness then it is no more free than if it were explained deterministically. The only way that free will can be preserved is if the supernatural intervenes somehow to make the mind unexplainable.
your last sentence is true, as far as it goes... i'm afraid i'm not familiar with the "law of randomness"... could you formulate it for me?

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 Message 83 by Gzus, posted 12-22-2002 5:05 PM Gzus has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 86 of 92 (27862)
12-25-2002 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by joz
12-23-2002 1:43 AM

Originally posted by joz:
On another note its probably worth pointing out that for someone who sees free will together with an omnicogniscient God as impossible (i.e Mark, John and I amongst others) the fact that free will seems to exsist (due to the uncertainty principle) is a pretty potent evidence against said omnicogniscient Gods exsistence....
joz, i would think that the reverse is true instead... if nature is all that exists, everything is determined since everything that is *now* is simply a consequent of an immediately preceding antecedent state of affairs... it takes the supernatural (or metaphysical if you will) for freedom of choice to be true
in your worldview, aren't your reason, your mind, your beliefs, your brain a part of nature? in your worldview, what can account for those things that is not material?
if so, they must of necessity be determined since naturalism states that everything in nature is dependent on the antecedent state of the rest of nature as determined by those self-same natural laws
and joz, if *all* your beliefs are determined, then any one belief would obviously be determined... isn't this true? and if it is true that any particular belief is determined, you have no choice but to believe it... no freedom of will at all, if naturalism is true
that leads, inexorably, to the fact that any single belief is held not on the basis of good reason, but because it is the consequent of all preceding antecedent causes...
you do not choose your beliefs, joz... you hold the beliefs you do because of the antecedent state of the universe, whether that belief is true or not... unless, of course, something other than the material exists... something like, for example, the God who created us and endowed us with the attributes he possesses

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by joz, posted 12-23-2002 1:43 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by joz, posted 12-25-2002 11:39 PM forgiven has replied
 Message 88 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 1:18 AM forgiven has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 89 of 92 (27883)
12-26-2002 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by joz
12-25-2002 11:39 PM

Originally posted by joz:
Oh and for a macroscopic example there's weather, given all the starting conditions you still can`t predict what will happen months in advance because a nasty little bugger called chaos theory rears its ill aspected little head, again throwing causality per se out the picture....
ok, i'd like to take this in slow steps so i don't miss anything... how does the fact that we can't predict weather months in advance have any bearing on whether or not that weather is contingent upon antecedent states of affairs?

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 Message 87 by joz, posted 12-25-2002 11:39 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 8:47 AM forgiven has replied

Inactive Member

Message 91 of 92 (27893)
12-26-2002 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by joz
12-26-2002 8:47 AM

moved to here

This message is a reply to:
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