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Author Topic:   true or false?
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 7 (27861)
12-25-2002 5:47 PM


since the state of everything in nature is dependent, and only dependent, on the antecedent state of the rest of nature as determined by the laws of mechanics, everything in nature is determined...

joz
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 7 (27874)
12-25-2002 11:42 PM


Nope Chaos theory and quantum mechanics boot causality out of the window....
So false....

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 8:10 AM joz has replied

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 7 (27885)
12-26-2002 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by joz
12-25-2002 11:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Nope Chaos theory and quantum mechanics boot causality out of the window.... So false....
let's be sure we're talking about the same version of quantum theory, ok? in yours, must existence depend upon observation? (well, you can qualify it to 'intelligent human observation' if you want)... iow, before humans existed the universe "existed" in all possible states, finally coming to the present state after observation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 12-25-2002 11:42 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 8:30 AM forgiven has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 7 (27887)
12-26-2002 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by forgiven
12-26-2002 8:10 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
let's be sure we're talking about the same version of quantum theory, ok? in yours, must existence depend upon observation? (well, you can qualify it to 'intelligent human observation' if you want)... iow, before humans existed the universe "existed" in all possible states, finally coming to the present state after observation?
Nope an electron exsists if you observe it or not, what observation does is collapse the wavefunction down to one of its possible states. Also QM only applies at very small scales, so the universe having been off the quantum scale since about 14 BYA (+ or - a couple of BY) didn`t have a wavefunction to collapse in the same way as an electron etc does...
As soon as the universe expanded from the quantum scale QM was for the most part superceded by the sort of descriptions you get under classical and relativistic physics, apart from down at the level of atoms etc that are on the quantum level...
(Of course that doesn't make the universe totally predictable because as I mentioned before Chaos theory rears its head)....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 8:10 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 9:03 AM joz has replied

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 7 (27891)
12-26-2002 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by joz
12-26-2002 8:30 AM


ok, thanks for the q.m. thing, it helps to know how another thinks
quote:
Originally posted by joz:
(Of course that doesn't make the universe totally predictable because as I mentioned before Chaos theory rears its head)....
now as for this part, why do you need chaos theory to account for our lack of predictive ability? isn't the random nature of q.t. enough?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 8:30 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 9:43 AM forgiven has not replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 7 (27897)
12-26-2002 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by forgiven
12-26-2002 9:03 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
ok, thanks for the q.m. thing, it helps to know how another thinks
quote:
Originally posted by joz:
(Of course that doesn't make the universe totally predictable because as I mentioned before Chaos theory rears its head)....
now as for this part, why do you need chaos theory to account for our lack of predictive ability? isn't the random nature of q.t. enough?

Not entirely, because there are so many interactions on the quantum level their macroscopic effects can be described fairly well statistically...
What Chaos theory says is that certain systems are increadibly susceptible to minute changes in conditions so that fairly good statistical description can`t help you predict what will happen terribly far into the future...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 9:03 AM forgiven has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 7 of 7 (27901)
12-26-2002 10:03 AM


OK - We got duplicate topics going.
The other one has a better title, and perhaps more content.
So I'm closing this one.
Go to the free will topic, at
EvC Forum: free will
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.

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