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Author Topic:   The Great Debate
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 95 of 102 (274316)
12-31-2005 1:25 AM


God Killing...
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Could you point out a passage of Scripture which actually says that God himself came down and killed someone?
arachnophilia writes:
here's a good one:
KJV writes:
2Sa 6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
1Ch 13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.
Ok, I missed these before ... and I admit they're good counter points.
But let's take a look at what's going on here in these passages.
II Samual writes:
David again brought together out of Israel chosen men, thirty thousand in all. He and all his men set out from Baalah of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim that are on the ark. They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.
The other passage you quoted seems to be a retelling of the same event:
1 Chronicles 13:1-10 (New International Version)
One problem with these passages is the fact that both quite plainly state that Uzzah apparently did something terribly wrong before the Lord's wrath struck him dead -- he actually reached out and touched the Ark of the Covenant, which is a big no no.
What do you think of these passages when it's pointed about that Uzzah does the wrong thing -- but with good motives?
I have further thoughts on these passages, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on them before I proceed (or, if you're too busy to respond in full, just let me know and I'll proceed to share my own thoughts and you can comment on them appropriately).
Edit: Thinking about how Uzzah reached out to touch the Ark reminds me of an article I read in my NIV Syudy Bible. I found it interesting then -- and I find it very applicable now. The following quotation seems to me to be of direct relevence to the question of Uzzah's death -- and "how" God killed him.
The article called Living with Fire reads as follows:
Living with Fire
Dangerous material more powerful than the atom.
The book of Leviticus is painstakingly ritual, however, strikingly similar to the procedures surrounding nuclear technology. The specialized clothing, the concern for purification, the precise handling of crucial materials-both nuclear workers and Old Testament priests share these. This similarity gives an important clue to understanding Leviticus.
Cleaning up a Nuclear Spill
At the Hanford plutonium separation plant in Eastern Washington, plutonium and U-235 are keep in a special high-security vault, in brass cans wrapped three times in plastic. To move the radioactive material, specially trained handlers don white protection overalls and special breather masks. They never touch the materials except through a sealed "glove box."
If an accident occurs, such as a small fire ignited by the "hot" material, the entire area must be cleansed through laborious scrubbing with soap and water. Carefully trained workers dispose of the dirty water in a specially protected toxic waste area. Anyone contaminated must be similarly "cleansed" from the exposure. In extreme cases, she or he must stay away from other people for months.
These rigid rules grew from hard experience. For decades no one knew the dangers of radioactivity. Workers who used radioactive materials to hand-paint the first "glow in the dark" watches licked their paint brushes to get a fine tip; their supervisors said they would gain sex appeal. Instead they got cancer. The introduction of nuclear weapons and nuclear power plants increased the amount of radioactive material being handled. Gradually scientists realized: if you are going to use the atom, you must adopt procedures to fit its power.
The Intimate presence of God
Leviticus reads something like a training manual for atomic plant workers. Its "dangerous material," however, is more powerful than the atom. Leviticus gives exhaustive detail on how to live with God.
A pamphlet on "how to survive a nuclear accident" may be dull if read on vacation, but it's gripping if read in a vibrating nuclear reactor. Similarly, Leviticus is dull if you do not realize the wonderful news behind it: a powerful God, the creator of the universe has entered the life of a small and insignificant tribe. The Israelites could not merely fit this God into their lives. They needed to restructure their lives-food, sex, economics-to fit with his. It was essential not just for priests, but for everyone.
Ignoring the operations manual could be deadly, It was for Aaron's two sons (Chapter 10).
And, I'll also note, it was deadly for Uzzah as noted above. In fact, it can once again be easilly said that someone, in this case Uzzah, died directly as a result of their apparent sin against God. In others words, once you read past the poetic language employed, it seems as though Uzzah basically killed himself as a result of going against God's Spirit.
As another article notes:
People who read of Uzzah's death in 2 Samuel 6:6-7 have often puzzled over why he died for trying to keep God's ark from tipping over. In 1 Chronicles the reason is clearer. David explained (15:13) that the Lord had been angry at themfor moving the ark in a way disobedient to God's law.
Numbers 4:14-15 and Exodus 37:5 specify that Levites were to carry the ark with poles -- and never touch it, on pain of death. Uzzah and his brother, non-levites, were carrying it on an oxcart -- the same vehicle the Philistines had used (1 Samuel 6:7). When the oxen stumbled and Uzzah stepped in to catch the ark, that was the final straw. Uzzah's death resulted from prolonged (though possibly well-intentioned) disobedience to God's direction. God had told them to honor the ark, a sign of his presence. Their sloppiness revealed a lack of concern for God's honor.
Consequently, the remainder of the "Living with Fire" article, applied to a more Christian perspective, goes as follows:
Living with Fire*
Free from Contamination
Today, Because of Jesus Christ, we don't live in the world of Leviticus. Jesus' perfect self-sacrifice made the daily sacrifice of animals unnecessary. He replaced the high priest as our representative before God. Jesus cleanses the real source of contamination , our sinful nature. Leviticus was meant to teach people some basic truths about God. and when their lessons were complete, they could go on to bigger and better things. (The New Testament book of Hebrews spells out this graduation.)
Yet we need to be reminded of the principles Leviticus taught. It tells us that God was then, as he is today, "a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). He has taught us how to live with that fire, not because we deserve to know, but because he wanted our company. We dare not treat him lightly.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-02-2006 01:57 AM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-03-2006 01:57 AM

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 96 of 102 (274368)
12-31-2005 10:01 AM


God apparently doing evil...
arachnophilia writes:
there are things that god clearly describes as evil, statements that god creates evil, commands and allows things we would call evil, and that tree of knowledge of good and evil that made adam "like god."
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Yes. And exactly how is evil created according to the Scriptures?
And, in addition this, what do the Hebrew Scriptures indicate are the reasons why God has apparently done these things?
Let's look at each example given.
arachnophilia writes:
there are things that god clearly describes as evil...
No doubt -- since we wouldn't be having this discourse if there weren't. But let's look at why these things are happening according to the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures.
arachnophilia writes:
statements that god creates evil
And how does God create evil?
arachnophilia writes:
commands and allows things we would call evil
Yes, but unless the Scriptures declare them evil, it matters not whether we think they're evil or not. You quoted several different sources for things that "we" would call evil -- the great deluge and the Sodom and Gomora events for example. However, nowhere do the Scriptures themselves call these events evil. This would be an example of our "subjective" human perception calling something which God himself considers a good thing evil.
Now, if you're talking about God sending evil spirits to counfound people, then once again we have to look at the reasons given as to "why" God sent them.
For example, in Judges 9:22-24 we read of the event where God sends an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem.
Judges 9:22-24 (New International Version)
However, it is clearly noted that the citizens of Shechem acted treacherously against Abimelech. It also quite clearly states that God did this in order that the crime against Jerub-Baal's seventy sons (the shedding of their blood) might be avenged on their brother Abimelech and on the citizens of Shechem (who had helped him murder his brothers).
In other words, "God sending an evil spirit" appears to mean that the citizens of Shechem did something wrong (going against God's spirit) which inevitably brought disaster upon themselves.
Once again, God is seen as "in control", but his control seems to be his own stepping out of the way to allow evil to befall those who have done evil.
In other words, God did nothing. And the only thing that he specifically ensures is that whatever does happen as a result of their own evil actions will work according to his will -- not theirs.
Based on the "mechanics" of this passage of the Hebrew Scriptures, it would seem as if we could extrapolate this "mechanism" of the Spirit's motion to other passages which basically say that God "sent an evil spirit" and infer that, once again, God is not actually doing anything except letting the pieces fall where they may when evil arises.
For example, there are the following passages found in the Hebrew Scriptures...
1 Samuel 16 (New International Version)
Within this passage we see that the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
So once we see this same pattern -- the evil spirit "from God" showing up when the "Spirit of the Lord" departs -- which brings up an interesting question: why did the Spirit of the Lord depart from Saul in the first place?
It seem that Saul's own previous actions brought about the departure of God's Spirit, especially in the light of previous passages prior to the Spirit's departure where God specifically says about Saul, "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."
So, once again, we see man "sins" preceeding the departure of "God's Spirit" -- which is fairly well exactly what I've been stressing all along. In other words, once again, God "sending an evil spirit" appears to equal "man rebelling against God's Spirit" -- and God stepping back in response to allow evil to consume itself.
But let's take another look at some more passages of the Hebrew Scriptures where they specifically talk about God "sending a spirit" which has sinful and evil actions.
For example, there's also this passage which you noted before:
1 Kings 22 (New International Version)
Here we specifically read an account where God specifically says, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?"
Finally, apparently after much debate, one spirit rises to the challenge -- effectively answering, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets."
To this God clearly replies, "You will succeed in enticing him." God then gives the spirit permission to be a lying spirit, "Go and do it."
Now, when reading these Hebrew Scriptures solely on their own merit, one can reasonably conclude that God sends lying spirits, correct?
But what exactly does it mean when it says that God "sent a lying spirit" -- and what was already happening "amongst the people" before God allows this to happen?
The king of Israel apparently brought together the prophets -” about four hundred men -” and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
They apparently answered, "Go, for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
Now let me ask you a simple question: were these prophets telling the truth?
It seems to me apparently not -- especially since God later says through Micaiah, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.'"
And later on we read...
NIV writes:
Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the LORD has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"
Of course, later on, we read...
NIV writes:
But someone drew his bow at random and hit the king of Israel between the sections of his armor.
The king told his chariot driver, "Wheel around and get me out of the fighting. I've been wounded."
All day long the battle raged, and the king was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans. The blood from his wound ran onto the floor of the chariot, and that evening he died.
As the sun was setting, a cry spread through the army: "Every man to his town; everyone to his land!"
Apparently the 400 prophets were lying while Micaiah was telling the truth after all. Furthermore, we specifically read from Miciah, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
And why were the 400 prophets lying in the first place?
The prophets were most likely lying because they were telling the king the exactly the things that the king wanted to hear in the first place -- lies which had nothing to do with doing God's will in the positive sense. In other words, they were apparently "false prophets".
Passages in the Hebrew Scriptures such as these noted below cover these kinds of "false prophetic" lies in God's name in lengthy detail:
Ezekiel 13: False Prophets Condemned
Here's another...
Jeremiah 14:13-15
And here's another (for a bit of overkill)...
Jeremiah 23: The Righteous Branch
Furthermore, the Israelites seemed to be in a state of terrible rebellion against God's will anyway -- and this state of rebellion leading to them being thrown in chaos occured well before the "lying spirit" was sent by God.
For that matter, preceeding the period which lead up to this time of Samuel (and later Micaiah), the Israelite nation was in a state of depravity. According to both Judges 17:6 and Judges 21:25 we read, "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."
Certainly the times we read where Samuel and Micaiah were actively prophesying seems to be a period of rebuilding Israel from the ashes of the former chaos that they were in during the period of the Judges -- so it's not hard to imagine that several people within the Israelite nation were still rebelling against God's will.
Even more so, since other passages of Scripture do indicate that God's Spirit leaves in accordance with people's sins, it does not seem unreasonable to conclude that this example of the "lying spirit" within I Kings 22 is simply yet another example of this very same "spiritual mechanism" affecting the "king of Israel" .
After all, the king of Israel we're talking about here is in fact none other than King Ahab -- the MOST EVIL of all the kings before him as I Kings 16:30 rather clearly states. Is there anyone else who typifies this rebellion against God's Spirit as well as Ahab does within his own time?
Isaiah 63:10 writes:
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
Archaeological note: Carved ivory plaques were found at the site of Ahab's palace in Samaria. Ahab was known to live in a ivory palace (1 Kings 22:39).
arachnophilia writes:
and that tree of knowledge of good and evil that made adam "like god."
Yes, but as I mentioned before, the Hebrew Scriptures do not explicitly state that the tree of knowledge of good and evil made Adam "like God". It specifically says the that the tree of knowledge of good and evil made Adam like "the unique one among us" -- which might not be a reference to God at all but the adversary among them.
I will note that I've already discussed the symbolism of the serpent possibly being a Hebrew cultural reference to pagans amongst them. I'll also now add that the very word dragon we use today comes from the Greek word Drakoni, which means "the seeing one". I will also now note that the history of dragons in ancient mythology seems to be strongly linked with the idea of "terrible guardians" which lord over treasures, including "secret knowledge" amongst other things.
Here's an interesting link which gives a comprehensive list of links involving the history of dragons in ancient mythology around the world:
Dragons in legends and mythology
I would like to discuss this further when we have a chance -- but more on this later.
Getting back to the state of Adam and Eve prior to their participation with the infamous tree, since Adam and Eve were now being driven out from the garden so that they wouldn't reach out and partake in the tree of life, it seems to me that they definitely weren't left in a state similar to "godliness" -- especially since God himself could apparently "still" partake in the tree of life (there is no record of God not being able to do this -- in fact, it seems to me that the "tree of life" is actually a complex metaphor for God himself based on passages such Proverbs 11:30 which states, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise." -- certainly God would be considered to me the requirements of this: a righteous being who wins souls).
This brings back my other point: the final result of partaking in the tree of knowledge of good and evil does not actually appear to leave them in a state that the serpent originally claimed -- being like gods. Indeed, as far as I am able to determine, being like God means being holy and separated from evil. Adam and Eve are not left in this state however. In fact, they seem to be in the opposite state that God orignally "created" them in (ie., left feeling guilty and ashamed and separated from God instead of feeling innocent and unashamed and closer to God).
Regardless of how one words it, it appears as if the "sin" occurs before the "wrath of God" comes, that the Holy Spirit is rebelled against before the bad spirit enters in.
As I noted above, in other words, God did nothing.
Nothing.
And the only thing that he specifically ensures is that whatever does happen as a result of their own evil actions will work according to his will -- and not their sinful desires.
I personally liken "sin" to the analogy of a short circuit within an electrical system. When the appliance is properly grounded, the it can allow the eletrical surge to pass harmlessly though it and disipate into the ground. However, if the appliance is not properly grounded, it blows a circuit.
Technically speaking, although the Israelites certainly didn't have anything remotely related to electrical appliances, they certainly did have the concept of the "elect".
In this sense, using the electrical anology above, it appears that the elect were those who were grounded in God so that the temptations of sin could be dissapated harmlessly into the earth.
However, if the person were not "elected", this seems to indicate that the person was not actually grounded in God in the first place -- so the temptations of sin took a disasterous hold on the person and essentially blew a circuit within their spirit causing them to likewise dissipate into the earth with the flow of the temptation (ie., driven into the ground: aka., sheol)
We had mentioned before about an analogy of the one-way street, where some were going in the right direction (according to God's will), and some were going in the wrong direction (against God's will).
But a better anaology than the street analogy might be the electrical analogies or direct currents and alternating currents. Since this usage of "science" is OT I'll leave it up to you if you want to hear more on this. However, as far as searching for an exact analogy that acurately captures the effects of going with or against God's Spirit, I think this analogy works very, very well -- and is not far removed from how I believe the Israelites beleived God worked in creation and his "elect".
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-31-2005 12:44 PM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-06-2006 11:33 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2006 3:53 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 98 of 102 (274636)
01-01-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by arachnophilia
01-01-2006 3:53 AM


Re: might be a while
No problem arach. Respond when you have a chance. As we've both agreed before, there's no hurry. I suspect the posts I've written above might open a new can of works anyway.
Hope all goes well with your search for a new computer. Have a happy new year.
Dale (Mr. Ex Nihilo)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2006 3:53 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 99 of 102 (275205)
01-03-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-30-2005 2:09 AM


Re: Cross References: Back to Basics
Here's a follow up from David Haggith's Book I mentioned earlier. Read through it and tell me what you think when you have a chance...
arachnophilia writes:
what other way do you propose we read this, that plainly says the lord created evil?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
My suggestion is to look elsewhere in the Scriptures to see clear examples of what God is actually doing when he "supposedly" creates evil. In fact, there are entire sections of Scripture which go into great detail about the "mechanisms" of exactly how God does "create" evil.
The section of Haggith's reading starts as such...
End-Time Prophecies of the Bible writes:
Hosea 6:6 writes:
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
What God really wanted to see in his people was transformation toward justice, humility, generousity -- love. Virtue defined holy living more than sacrifice or ritual, and paganism had nothing to offer with regard to virtue. Unlike idols, God did not need to be fed daily sacrifices to still a ravenous belly and rapacious temperment.
Instead of becoming a vehicle for respecting the life they ate or a reminder of the cost of evil, the practice of sacrifice as begun by Moses had become an excuse for continuing to sin: We can sin today, and sacrifice tomorrow to keep God happy. They had become a form of indulgence. So God reminded his little nation that he is quite capable of preparing his own sacrifice -- if sacrifice were really what he wanted -- and that he would do exactly that if they persisted in their foolishness:
Zephaniah 1:2-18 .
How can God who is loving, who is perfect, and who is unchanging because he is perfect, get so emotional! Emotions seem highly changeable, unstable, even unpredictable and dangerous. One answer may be that human emotions reflect divine nature just as much as human intellect does. Another may be that God communicates in language that human listeners should be able to understand. He lowers himself to state his case in human terms. And could a wake-up call be more plain? One would think such dire predictions would have brought immediate reform, but they usually fell on deaf ears.
God the Jilted Lover
God's emotional pleas were even plaintive. The creator of the universe seemed to humiliate himself before his creation by begging for their affections. This was not likely because God felt unfulfilled without their affection, so it must haven been because God would lower himself even to pleading if that's what it took to guide humanity toward their fulfillment in him. It speaks volumes for the virtue of humility that God was willing to speak in such humanly comprehensible terms because of his love. In one striking passage of utterly human passion, God speaks of himself as a lover jilted by his bride. He reminds his bride, Israel, that he had transformed her into a princess, though she began from the common clay of the nations around her. The Jews had come out of the land of Babylon into Jerusalem, but Babylon would be their destiny again if they continued in its ways:*
Ezekiel 16:1-14
Having used the language of a marriage covenant, this love poem takes a sudden turn. The bride that had begun as nothing and had been transformed by God's own beauty prostitutes her beauty by giving her devotion to other gods. God describes himself as a cuckolded husband. The marriage between God and the people of Jerusalem is broken by their unfaithfulness. In practical terms, the people of Israel did this by building temples in high places to pagan gods. The metaphor of prostitution is particularly appropriate because many of these temples required temple prostitutes to carry out their fertility rites before pagan gods. In that respect these pagan temples were nothing more than religious brothels, and the priests nothing more than pimps, making a living off the temple prostitutes.
Ezekiel 16:15-21
Instead of using the material wealth with which God had blessed them to build a monotheistic nation, the people of Israel had reverted to the pagan ways of the Babylonians -- even to human sacrifice. A few Jews at this time were not above killing the greatest blessing that had come out of their marriage with God -- the children they had made together.
Ezekial 16:22, 25, 30, 32-34
Because the Jews were unwanted, God says, they had to humiliate themselves by paying others to commit prostitution with them (perhaps meaning they had to pay tribute to those nations whose imperial strength had impressed them):
Ezekial 16:37-45, 52, 59-63
Thus, the prophet Ezekial predicted Jerusalem's first destruction at the hands of the Babylonians because the people had broken the covenant established by Moses, but he also made predictions of a new covenant to come. How appropriate, since Jerusalem turned to the pagan gods of Babylon, that Babylon should have its way with her. She would get the lover she seduced and would be raped by him. She would, then, find that God, her former lover, was no longer there to protect her and would discover her illicit lover's true domineering spirit.* Jerusalem did what came natural to her, and Babylon would do what came natural to it in the state of human affairs.
God expressed the ramifications of Jewish idolatry in terms of a jealous human lover so the people of Israel could feel their shame and change, but they did not. The resulting punishment came about entirely by human will carried out by human hands (Babylonian plans carried out by Babylonian hands). At the same time, God spoke as though he was the one bringing these things about because he chose to allow them to happen.*
The destruction that eventualy came upon Jerusalem was not God's way of evening the score. The only way the Jews of that time were going to understand the error of trusting in Babylon's religion was to experience how misplaced that trust was. Books of words had failed to turn them around, but reality communicates where words have failed* That God is not a vindictive lover is shown by how quickly he is ready to restore Jerusalem -- even before Jerusalem has done anything to show change.
Because the Gentile nations had in some cases been better than God's own people, he promised to make them prosper. Their prosperity, however, would not be based on the same covenant God had with the Jews since the days of Moses. God promised a new covenant that would include the Gentile nations. Thus, the Jews will never open their mouths to speak proudly over their Gentile sisters as they had done in the past, for the Gentiles would also become a chosen people.
*emphasis mine.
Although this passage within Ezekial is most certainly an allegory, a "poetic story" that should not be taken literally, the "mechanism" of God's wrath is expressed very clearly within the lines of these poetic words.
1) Although expressed poetically, it is clear that since Jerusalem turned to the pagan gods of Babylon, Jerusalem essentially openned it's defenses thereby allowing Babylon to have its way with her. She would basically get the lover she seduced and would be raped by him as a result of her "adultery". She would, then, find that God, her former lover, was no longer there to protect her even as she would discover her illicit lover's true domineering spirit.
2) Even though expressed poetically, in reality one can still clearly see that the resulting punishment came about entirely by human wills carried out by human hands (Babylonian plans carried out by Babylonian hands). At the same time, God spoke as though he was the one bringing these things about because he chose to "allow" them to happen.
3) The destruction that eventualy came upon Jerusalem was not God's way of "evening the score". The only way the Jews of that time were going to understand the error of trusting in Babylon's religion was to experience how misplaced that trust was. Books of words had failed to turn them around, but "reality" communicates where words have failed.
Poetry or not, these lengthy passages within the Hebrew Scriptures seems to display a very clear and unequivocal pattern found all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures from beginning to end -- God's Spirit retreats in response to man's sins (and man causes his own demise by rebelling against God's Spirit).
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-03-2006 01:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-30-2005 2:09 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

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