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Author Topic:   Dover science teachers refuse to read ID disclaimer
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 3 of 164 (175001)
01-08-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nic Tamzek
01-08-2005 3:40 AM


Perhaps the teachers should request equal time in Sunday School.
These science teachers are, quite simply, modern heros. The rules and regulations they cite seem strongly supportive of their position, but school district administrators have many ways of dealing with faculty they're unhappy with, and these teachers have put their jobs and security on the line.
--Percy

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 Message 1 by Nic Tamzek, posted 01-08-2005 3:40 AM Nic Tamzek has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 9 of 164 (176563)
01-13-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by xevolutionist
01-13-2005 12:32 PM


Re: Who writes this stuff?
xevolutionist writes:
Why is the truth "evilution" bashing? If evolution were a creditable theory why would "teachers" resist open dialogue that presented an opposing theory?
Calling your side of the debate truth is why teachers resist any endorsement of Intelligent Design in science classrooms. Scientific theories do not represent truth. The theory of evolution is not truth. No scientific theory is truth. Scientific theories are tentatively held frameworks of understanding build around evidence, not truth.
The reason Intelligent Design is excluded from science classrooms is because it is not a scientific theory. That's not to say it can never become a scientific theory. All it need do is provide a tentative framework of understanding (in other words, a scientific theory, not truth) that interprets the evidence better than the theory of evolution.
The first step along the path to becoming a scientific theory is to identify some evidence that differentiates it from evolution. ID needs to devise an experiment, test or observation that would have outcome A if evolution were correct, and outcome B if ID were correct.
If outcome B then results, ID would have it's first supporting evidence.
But nothing like this has been done for ID so far, and the fact that most of its advocates are evangelical Christians rather than scientists (this is your cue to list Behe and Dembski in your response) is not a point in its favor. In most quarters ID is easily perceived for what it is: thinly disguised Biblical fundamentalism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by xevolutionist, posted 01-13-2005 12:32 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by xevolutionist, posted 01-13-2005 3:01 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 164 (176592)
01-13-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by xevolutionist
01-13-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Who writes this stuff?
xevolutionist writes:
As to the "truth" I was referring to the statement that evolution is not proven.
Yes, this is true, the theory of evolution has not been proven. It shares this property with all other scientific theories. No scientific theory has every been proven. Scientific theories are never proven. They are tentative and open to change and falsification.
What instead happens is that scientific theories become accepted when they are able to successfully explain and interpret a body of evidence. Atomic theory, the theory of relativity and quantum theory do this in physics, the thermodynamic laws do this in chemistry, plate tectonic theory does this in geology, and the theory of evolution does this in biology. So if you reject evolution because it isn't proven, then you must reject all other scientific theories by the same criteria.
Since any theory of evolution eventually boils down to the necessity of abiogenesis, which is impossible, there is only one credible theory left.
The argument that abiogenesis is impossible should be taken up in another thread. If you go to the [forum=-13] forum you'll find threads where this is being discussed.
The reason the theory of evolution is taught in science classrooms is because it is an accepted scientific theory. The reason intelligent design is not taught is because it isn't an accepted scientific theory, and in fact isn't a scientific theory at all.
If you'd like to discuss the validity of intelligent design, then you can go to the [forum=-10] forum and find threads where this is being discussed.
Sorry to keep referencing you off to other forums, but this forum's focus is on education.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 24 of 164 (176628)
01-13-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by xevolutionist
01-13-2005 3:38 PM


Re: Who writes this stuff?
xevolutionist writes:
I actually thought that if something were proven that it would become known as factual.
The problem is probably more vocabulary than anything else. When scientists use the word "proven" in conversation or even in formal papers, as sometimes happen, they probably mean something different than what you think it means. Scientists mean "well supported by evidence and widely accepted within the scientific commuity at this point in time" when they say proven. When you say proven you probably have in mind a mathematical proof using equations, or perhaps an experiment proving once and for all forever and ever that something is so.
We see this misunderstanding here all the time, and so many of us have grown into the habit of avoiding the problem altogether by saying that theories are never proven, only supported by evidence and accepted by scientists at the current time. That situation may change in light of new evidence or new insights. A theory is tentative and malleable. A theory is intended to be a reflection of the evidence it attempts to explain, and as more and more evidence is gathered the theory is modified to accommodate it.
--Percy

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 Message 18 by xevolutionist, posted 01-13-2005 3:38 PM xevolutionist has not replied

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 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 01-13-2005 4:58 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 129 of 164 (271159)
12-20-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Wounded King
12-20-2005 11:40 AM


Key excerpts from the opinion...
...with my comments.
Judge Jones on page 25 writes:
The only apparent difference between the argument made by Paley and the argument for ID, as expressed by defense expert witnesses Behe and Minnich, is that ID’s “official position” does not acknowledge that the designer is God. However, as Dr. Haught testified, anyone familiar with Western religious thought would immediately make the association that the tactically unnamed designer is God, as the description of the designer in Of Pandas and People (hereinafter “Pandas”) is a “master intellect,” strongly suggesting a supernatural deity as opposed to any intelligent actor known to exist in the natural world.
Key phrase in the above: "the tactically unnamed designer is God". This comes up in discussions here time and time again. "The designer is not known and cannot be determined," say IDists. "Who do you think you're fooling?" comes the reply. Obviously not the US courts.
The transparency of the claim is so obvious it is hard to believe it can be advanced with a straight face, but it is, and it is a source of much frustration here. The claim is so simple, so direct and so obviously wrong.
Judge Jones on page 25 writes:
Moreover, it is notable that both Professors Behe and Minnich admitted their personal view is that the designer is God and Professor Minnich testified that he understands many leading advocates of ID to believe the designer to be God. (21:90 (Behe); 38:36-38 (Minnich)).
It's just amazing the attacks of honesty that overwhelm some people when they pledge an oath on the Bible.
Judge Jones on page 26 writes:
A significant aspect of the IDM is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.
IDM is the acronym Jones uses for Intelligent Design Movement.
Judge Jones on page 28 writes:
Moreover, in turning to Defendants’ lead expert, Professor Behe, his testimony at trial indicated that ID is only a scientific, as opposed to a religious, project for him; however, considerable evidence was introduced to refute this claim. Consider, to illustrate, that Professor Behe remarkably and unmistakably claims that the plausibility of the argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God. (P-718 at 705) (emphasis added).
Once again Behe gets his comeuppance.
Judge Jones on page 31 writes:
It is notable that not one defense expert was able to explain how the supernatural action suggested by ID could be anything other than an inherently religious proposition.
This point hints at something that every IDist who has come here has refused to address, namely how the designer acts.
Judge Jones on page 31 writes:
A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism.
How many IDists have come here claiming that ID is not a form of creationism?
Judge Jones on page 31 writes:
Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted, whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service describe it as a religious, Christian organization. Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work.
This hints at something else that IDists always tell us, that despite that the vast majority of ID advocates are conservative Christians, that's just a coincidence. There's nothing religious about ID, they go on, its development by Christian conservatives derives solely from their love of science.
Judge Jones on page 32 writes:
As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court’s decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE’s argument that by merely disregarding the words “creation” and “creationism,” FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas.
This is a biggie. When it comes to promotion of their religious beliefs, these particular Christians can't tell the difference between truth and lies.
Judge Jones on page 35 writes:
Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism.
Shame on Fuller for being truthful! He probably isn't a very popular guy among IDists these days.
Judge Jones on page 35 writes:
Although contrary to Fuller, defense experts Professors Behe and Minnich testified that ID is not creationism, their testimony was primarily by way of bare assertion...
Gee, where have we seen that before?
Judge Jones on page 40-41 writes:
The second paragraph of the disclaimer reads as follows:
Because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.
This paragraph singles out evolution from the rest of the science curriculum and informs students that evolution, unlike anything else that they are learning, is “just a theory,” which plays on the “colloquial or popular understanding of the term [”theory’] and suggest[ing] to the informed, reasonable observer that evolution is only a highly questionable ”opinion’ or a ”hunch.’” Selman, 390 F. Supp. 2d at 1310; 14:110-12 (Alters); 1:92 (Miller). Immediately after students are told that “Darwin’s Theory” is a theory and that it continues to be tested, they are told that “gaps” exist within evolutionary theory without any indication that other scientific theories might suffer the same supposed weakness. As Dr. Alters explained this paragraph is both misleading and creates misconceptions in students about evolutionary theory by misrepresenting the scientific status of evolution and by telling students that they should regard it as singularly unreliable, or on shaky ground.
Nothing new here, I just thought this was an especially effective way of making this point.
Judge Jones on page 41-42 writes:
Paragraph three of the disclaimer proceeds to present this alternative and reads as follows:
Intelligent Design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People, is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what Intelligent Design actually involves.
Students are therefore provided information that contrasts ID with “Darwin’s view” and are directed to consult Pandas as though it were a scientific text that provided a scientific account of, and empirical scientific evidence for, ID. The theory or “view” of evolution, which has been discredited by the District in the student’s eyes, is contrasted with an alternative “explanation,” as opposed to a “theory,” that can be offered without qualification or cautionary note. The alternative “explanation” thus receives markedly different treatment from evolutionary “theory.” In other words, the disclaimer relies upon the very same “contrived dualism” that the court in McLean recognized to be a creationist tactic that has “no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose.”
Again, nothing new here, but the point is made especially well.
This next is from a footnote:
Judge Jones on page 46 writes:
In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath...
Holy whoppers, Batman, conservative Christians lying under oath in an American courtroom! What could be next?
Judge Jones on page 49 writes:
In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere.
Nicely put!
Judge Jones on page 63 writes:
We find it incumbent upon the Court to further address an additional issue raised by Plaintiffs, which is whether ID is science. To be sure, our answer to this question can likely be predicted based upon the foregoing analysis. While answering this question compels us to revisit evidence that is entirely complex, if not obtuse, after a six week trial that spanned twenty-one days and included countless hours of detailed expert witness presentations, the Court is confident that no other tribunal in the United States is in a better position than are we to traipse into this controversial area.
Judge Jones is one confident sonofabitch: "No other tribunal in the United States is in a better position than we are to traipse [traipse?] into this controversial area."???
True or not, it seems somewhat unjudicial to say so.
Judge Jones on page 64 writes:
We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.
'Nuf said.
Judge Jones on page 75-76 writes:
By defining irreducible complexity in the way that he has, Professor Behe attempts to exclude the phenomenon of exaptation by definitional fiat, ignoring as he does so abundant evidence which refutes his argument...Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex.
That gasping sound you hear is the dying breaths of Behe's credibility. I'll add a little editorial comment. The same arguments that IDists bring here and that we argue over for pages and pages were brought to Dover, and the judge saw through them like they were so much tissue paper.
Judge Jones on page 80-81 writes:
Unlike biological systems, human artifacts do not live and reproduce over time. They are non-replicable, they do not undergo genetic recombination, and they are not driven by natural selection. (1:131-33 (Miller); 23:57-59 (Behe)). For human artifacts, we know the designer’s identity, human, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience based upon empirical evidence that humans can make such things, as well as many other attributes including the designer’s abilities, needs, and desires. (D-251 at 176; 1:131-33 (Miller); 23:63 (Behe); 5:55- 58 (Pennock)). With ID, proponents assert that they refuse to propose hypotheses on the designer’s identity, do not propose a mechanism, and the designer, he/she/it/they, has never been seen. In that vein, defense expert Professor Minnich agreed that in the case of human artifacts and objects, we know the identity and capacities of the human designer, but we do not know any of those attributes for the designer of biological life. (38:44-47 (Minnich)). In addition, Professor Behe agreed that for the design of human artifacts, we know the designer and its attributes and we have a baseline for human design that does not exist for design of biological systems. (23:61-73 (Behe)). Professor Behe’s only response to these seemingly insurmountable points of disanalogy was that the inference still works in science fiction movies.
What must it be like for Behe to read this trouncing of his views. Well, I suppose he can always attend a prayer meeting and receive the huzzahs of his fellow conservative Christians. I wonder if there are any meetings going on at Lehigh concerning the possibility of revoking tenure. Perhaps they could invoke some "terminally embarrassing" clause.
Judge Jones on page 81-82 writes:
It is readily apparent to the Court that the only attribute of design that biological systems appear to share with human artifacts is their complex appearance, i.e. if it looks complex or designed, it must have been designed. This inference to design based upon the appearance of a “purposeful arrangement of parts” is a completely subjective proposition, determined in the eye of each beholder and his/her viewpoint concerning the complexity of a system...
Accordingly, the purported positive argument for ID does not satisfy the ground rules of science which require testable hypotheses based upon natural explanations. (3:101-03 (Miller)). ID is reliant upon forces acting outside of the natural world, forces that we cannot see, replicate, control or test, which have produced changes in this world. While we take no position on whether such forces exist, they are simply not testable by scientific means and therefore cannot qualify as part of the scientific process or as a scientific theory.
So true, so true!
Judge Jones on page 83-84 writes:
Despite the scientific community’s overwhelming support for evolution, Defendants and ID proponents insist that evolution is unsupported by empirical evidence. Plaintiffs’ science experts, Drs. Miller and Padian, clearly explained how ID proponents generally and Pandas specifically, distort and misrepresent scientific knowledge in making their anti-evolution argument.
I guess all IDists think alike, eh, Randman?
Judge Jones on page 86 writes:
In addition, Dr. Miller refuted Pandas’ claim that evolution cannot account for new genetic information and pointed to more than three dozen peer-reviewed scientific publications showing the origin of new genetic information by evolutionary processes.
This information argument comes up here a lot, but not one IDist has been successful with this argument.
Judge Jones on page 87 writes:
Peer review helps to ensure that research papers are scientifically accurately, meet the standards of the scientific method, and are relevant to other scientists in the field. (1:39-40 (Miller)). Moreover, peer review involves scientists submitting a manuscript to a scientific journal in the field, journal editors soliciting critical reviews from other experts in the field and deciding whether the scientist has followed proper research procedures, employed up-to-date methods, considered and cited relevant literature and generally, whether the researcher has employed sound science.
The evidence presented in this case demonstrates that ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed research, data or publications.
I'm shocked, shocked I say, to discover that there's no science going on in ID!!! Start reading at page 87 if you want to see yet another fatal Behe concession, because I'm going to stop citing them.
Judge Jones on page 97 writes:
It is notable, and in fact incredible that Bonsell disclaimed any interest in creationism during his testimony, despite the admission by his counsel in Defendants’ opening statement that Bonsell had such an interest. Simply put, Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner about this and other subjects.
When oh when will I cease being surprised by Christian misbehavior in the name of God?
Judge Jones on page 105 writes:
Finally, although Buckingham, Bonsell, and other defense witnesses denied the reports in the news media and contradicted the great weight of the evidence about what transpired at the June 2004 Board meetings, the record reflects that these witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions, and are accordingly not credible on these points.
Okay, I'm building up an immunity to this. I'm beginning to see that lying and misrepresenting are just "business as usual" for creationists.
Judge Jones on page 115 writes:
As we will discuss in more detail below, the inescapable truth is that both Bonsell and Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions about their knowledge of the source of the donation for Pandas...
I move for a public stoning!
Judge Jones on page 121 writes:
In fact, one unfortunate theme in this case is the striking ignorance concerning the concept of ID amongst Board members. Conspicuously, Board members who voted for the curriculum change testified at trial that they had utterly no grasp of ID.
Why am I not surprised?
Judge Jones on page 130 writes:
Although Defendants attempt to persuade this Court that each Board member who voted for the biology curriculum change did so for the secular purposed of improving science education and to exercise critical thinking skills, their contentions are simply irreconcilable with the record evidence. Their asserted purposes are a sham, and they are accordingly unavailing, for the reasons that follow.
A sham? Christians involved in a sham? Who woulda thought?
Judge Jones on page 132 writes:
Defendants’ previously referenced flagrant and insulting falsehoods to the Court provide sufficient and compelling evidence for us to deduce that any allegedly secular purposes that have been offered in support of the ID Policy are equally insincere.
The judge sounds pretty upset about this, believing the falsehoods presented by the defendants to be "flagrant and insulting".
Judge Jones on page 137 writes:
The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.
Tut, tut, tut!
Judge Jones on page 138 writes:
The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.
Of course, we here are not wasting our time because we're serving an educational purpose.
I have not yet heard whether anything will happen to those the judge felt lied under oath, but I hope action will be taken.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Wounded King, posted 12-20-2005 11:40 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Trixie, posted 12-20-2005 4:39 PM Percy has not replied
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 Message 135 by Silent H, posted 12-21-2005 7:02 AM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 145 of 164 (272011)
12-23-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Silent H
12-23-2005 12:26 PM


Re: Discovery Institute vows the fight is not over...
If I can try saying this a different way, the Discovery Institute says it is going to continue packaging ID the same way it always has, despite the ease with which the judge in this case was able to see through the ruse. They believe that persistence will pay off and therefore plan to continue the obfuscation instead of engaging in true scientific research and the composition of sound, rational arguments.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 12:26 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Silent H, posted 12-23-2005 1:33 PM Percy has not replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 157 of 164 (283128)
02-01-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Brad McFall
02-01-2006 7:34 AM


Re: Discovery Institute vows the fight is not over...
Your quote from ICR about IDists not necessarily being creationists is the kind of thing that Judge Jones termed a sham. Ruse is another good word.
IDists seem to believe that if they say they're not creationists then this should be accepted without question, as if the truth is whatever they declare it to be. Such shoddy approaches are why creationism always fails in the court system. Courts have to deal daily with the justifications and explanations of criminals, some of whose lives are at stake, so they're very familiar with untangling complicated stories. No judge with any familiarity with the creationist movement is going to respond to a claim that ID is not creationism with, "Oh, okay." Transparent arguments like this aren't going anywhere. Judge Jones said as much in his ruling when he noted how even the shining lights of ID like Behe couldn't support their assertions.
A guy runs a red light and gets pulled over. He says to the officer, "My wife's having a baby." He's alone in the car. That's about the level of stupidity someone would have to achieve before they would believe that ID is not related to creationism.
For decades evolution was treated to invented arguments from fundamentalist religious groups that the earth is young, the universe is young, cosmology is wrong, geology is wrong, physics is wrong, biology is wrong. Finally they say, "Oh, never mind," and now the same fundamentalist groups are backing ID through the Discovery Institute and are subjecting evolution to what will likely be more decades of invented arguments. When this, too, fails they will once again say, "Oh, never mind," and move on to yet another argument.
Can one become an Olympic skater just by declaring, "Hey, I'm an Olympic skater!" No, of course not. Well, what in the world makes IDists think that ID can be science just by declaring it is science? How stupid do they think people are? In order to be science ID will have to do science. Invented arguments like those of Behe and Dembski just aren't going to fly.
So the Discovery Institute can fight on, and no doubt will fight on, but ID has already lost this war. The battles and skirmishes will likely continue for decades, but unless the court system experiences a sudden and dramatic drop in IQ the outcome is already clear.
This inevitable outcome seems to be strongly reflected here at EvC Forum. The number of threads hosting traditional YEC arguments has dwindled to a trickle, and no thread is currently focused on Dembski's information and specified complexity arguments or Behe's irreducible complexity arguments beyond brief mentions. Whither next, creationism?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Brad McFall, posted 02-01-2006 7:34 AM Brad McFall has not replied

Replies to this message:
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