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Author Topic:   Dover science teachers refuse to read ID disclaimer
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 164 (183495)
02-06-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 6:01 AM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
I agree with schraf, good job. It's too bad that fighting the good fight means that you are facing the wrath of the mob with burning crosses... I mean torches.
I am also interested in what your son thought of all this. And did he say anything to the "teacher" at the time?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 6:01 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 41 of 164 (183635)
02-07-2005 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Lithodid-Man
02-06-2005 7:26 PM


Re: A battle won in Alaska
My son was actually pissed at me for making an issue out of it because he thinks that some of the other kids now treat him differently.
While I understand feeling bad because sticking out always sort of acts like a lightning rod, especially for kids, I don't see it as you having made an issue.
If a person tries to kill someone and you interfere, that might draw the murderers attention and he (or his friends) could come after you and your family... but that was not you who "made an issue". They made an issue and you responded according to duty to protect your rights, as well as everyone else's.
In this case this lady constructed a false class and took money she should not be taking for it, counting on the complacency of others in order to keep taking the money. While not a murderer, it is the same thing as any petty con man or swindler.
Why make waves? The real question is why did she?
Maybe your son would understand it from that angle, though I suppose it won't help with how he gets treated. Ironically maybe some good Xian movies would help with that as they usually emphasize how important it is to stick up for rights despite the persecution that will follow. You were right, she was wrong, they are now persecuting... ahhhhh the irony.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-07-2005 05:03 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-06-2005 7:26 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-07-2005 5:54 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 128 of 164 (271156)
12-20-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
12-20-2005 3:53 PM


Re: The Discovery Institutes response is even funnier...
I love how the DI rep did exactly what the judge predicted they would do, calling him an activist.
On the question of being liars, they did say...
Reaching well beyond the immediate legal questions before him, Judge Jones offered wide-ranging and sometimes angry comments denouncing intelligent design and praising Darwinian evolution.
Which flies in the face of the judge's actual decision, that suggested ID could and should be explored further by those with an interest in it.
Well this is certainly a holiday present.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-20-2005 3:53 PM jar has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 135 of 164 (271267)
12-21-2005 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Percy
12-20-2005 4:19 PM


School board replies...
You pointed out that the Judge said this...
Although Defendants attempt to persuade this Court that each Board member who voted for the biology curriculum change did so for the secular purposed of improving science education and to exercise critical thinking skills, their contentions are simply irreconcilable with the record evidence. Their asserted purposes are a sham, and they are accordingly unavailing, for the reasons that follow.
It is interesting to read what one of the school board members has to say in light of the decision.
Former school board member William Buckingham, who advanced the policy, said from his new home in Mount Airy, N.C., that he still feels the board did the right thing.
"I'm still waiting for a judge or anyone to show me anywhere in the Constitution where there's a separation of church and state," he said. "We didn't lose; we were robbed."
If that's not an admission that ID was religious in nature and he knew it, I'm not sure what could be. So instead of lying low and admitting errors were made, the plan is to be defiant and pretend the court was supposed to prove something to him, regarding something they had claimed was not at issue in the first place?
Smooooth. After hanging themselves with the length of rope they were given, they beg for some more.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 12-20-2005 4:19 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by custard, posted 12-21-2005 7:54 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 140 by Brad McFall, posted 12-21-2005 3:10 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 142 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2005 4:03 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 144 of 164 (272007)
12-23-2005 12:26 PM


Discovery Institute vows the fight is not over...
The Discovery Institute is posting responses to the Dover decision. This one response is particularly interesting.
It starts by admitting something rather important...
To be fair, the ACLU did present testimony supporting the plaintiffs' claim that the school board had acted for religious motives in adopting the policy requiring that a four-paragraph statement be read.
Hopefully that will put to rest notions from the YEC crowd that such actions are kosher.
However...
But by everyone's reckoning the debate is far from over. Recently a federal judge's rejection of a textbook in Cobb County, Georgia was sharply questioned by a federal appeals court panel when the case was argued, and a federal judge in California denied a motion to dismiss a lawsuit challenging a pro-Darwin website.
Across the country, legislatures and state boards of education are taking up the question of whether and how to "teach the controversy," and they not likely to find Judge Jones' analysis persuasive. As policies emerge that are more in keeping with the American spirit of open inquiry, the Kitzmiller case will recede as an interesting and ironic footnote to the history of this scientific and cultural debate.
I love how consistent they are. They are for open inquiry yet the Dover issue was patently not about opening inquiry, and one of the points mentioned above is about suppressing speech at a website.
Note they are still hoping the "teach the controversy" angle will work, and using the same suggestion of how this case will be viewed years from now that they use for evolutionary theory.
This message has been edited by holmes, 12-23-2005 12:26 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 12-23-2005 12:34 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 146 of 164 (272040)
12-23-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
12-23-2005 12:34 PM


Re: Discovery Institute vows the fight is not over...
the Discovery Institute says it is going to continue packaging ID the same way it always has, despite the ease with which the judge in this case was able to see through the ruse.
You are absolutely correct, I just found this other article at DI, which suggests their new strategy...
“Judge Jones’ decision about teaching intelligent design is legally irrelevant for Ohio’s Critical Analysis of Evolution model science curriculum,” says legal scholar and Gonzaga University law professor David DeWolf...
“Not only is Ohio outside of Judge Jones’ legal jurisdiction, but the Ohio State science education standards explicitly acknowledge that they do not require the teaching of intelligent design, so his determination that intelligent design is not science doesn't affect the actions of the Ohio Board of Education.”
... which means repackaging as offering simply "critical analysis of evolution". The irony being they are saying how great this avenue might be because it won't involve their theory of intelligent design.
Some might find this more satisfying anyway as it will allow them the ability to throw stones at evolutionary theory without ever having to try and create a solid secondary theory.
I love the wrap up...
“Unlike the ACLU, we want students to learn more about evolution, not less,” said Dr. John West, associate director of Discovery Institute’s Center for Science & Culture. “Students need to learn Darwinian evolution because it is the dominant theory of biological evolution. But, they also need to learn about some of the scientific evidence that challenges parts of the theory.”
Hahahahahahahaha...

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 12-23-2005 12:34 PM Percy has not replied

  
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