George Bush protecting your civil liberties by breaking them

And why don't you hold the NSA and CIA to be accountable under the law?Ever hear of MK-Ultra? Get back to me when you have a grip on this massive 30-40 year program, spying, kidnapping and experimenting on civilians, sometimes killing them, no one held accountable, and which had projects run out of every major research hospital in the country.When you are outraged by that, then we can talk.

Yep, what about it?You think I am defending the CIA?

Why don't you try to assemble a little bit of basic knowledge first?The typical waste-my-time substantiating stuff you will refuse to believe is not all that interesting to me. This is the Coffee House, not the science thread. I am speaking from memory, from watching the events and Clinton stating when the Patriot Act came out that he tried for the same stuff after OKC.If you don't want to accept my memory, fine. I really don't care because, frankly, I don't think you care about the infractions against the Constitution but just want to bash Bush. I think if you cared, you'd talk about Mk_Ultra and Echelon, and already be informed, but evidently you are not.

The biggest difference is, as usual, in actions not desire. Many Presidents have wanted power, but when told it was wrong, dropped the issue. But the Bush administration behaved differently. They simply ignore whatever stands between them and their preconcieved notions of reality, or look for loopholes to get around the law. It is the most dishonest, immoral administration in US history since Ronald Reagan.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

HMMM NO. Not legally. Yes the capability is there, we know it is there, but to have the President authorize the use with our court approval is ILLEGAL. There is a huge difference about what can be done and what is ordered to be done or used.P.S. Why must you always be so rude and self-righteous. Get off the high horse.

It's not clear that it is illegal. Arach's post gets into more details on that.

Waste of time? Truth?
You are the rudest poster I think I have ever seen. I don't care if this is coffee house. You post assertions and statements but refuse to back them up with facts. You brought it up so it is up to you to support or retract. I asked for my personal knowledge what you were basing these broad unsubstantiated statements on. I guess if you do not have any proof or evidence(wow this aint the first time is it) then we should just ignore these statements from you. Anyone can say anything claiming it is true. The current administration does it all the time. The job of anyone interested in truth is to question. Force people to substantiate and validate their assertions and statements. The reason our country is in the position it is is because no one questioned. No one asked for the proof. No one pulled back the curtain to see who the wizard really is. The media failed us and we failed ourselves.
Therefore, if you are going to make assertions, comments or accusations, either back them up or expect me to be on your ass until you do. Do not insult my intelligence or education. I have done NOTHING to insult you, all I have ever done is asked you to back up your comments with hard facts and evidence. If you cannot handle that then maybe you should find something else to do with your time.

Theodric, dealing with the evos here has definitely resulted in somewhat of a harsher tone in dealing with posters in general at this forum, but in my defense, I asked you about Ml-Ultra and Echelon, and you ignored that and so it did seem like you were trying to just get me to waste my time substantiating something which would be ignored regardless.

Maybe I should be more specific. When a person is caught doing it publicly he gets stopped. And that includes presidents. They may not get as much as they deserve punishment wise but the behavior is ended. Nixon and Reagan are two good examples. The disctinction I am making is between can and does. If it is as routine as you say, provide the evidence. I would be interested in seeing it.And that would not argue for its continuance, but rather for greater pressure to end the programs and destruction of such facilities.I'm still not getting the "they have done so so it's okay" argument.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

And so NOT making any deal out of it will somehow generate the end of the larger problem? What kind of logic is that?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Clinton did not try to push through the Patriot Act, and if he did, the Republicans stopped him because they are for smaller Government when the other guy is in charge

[qs]when the other guy is in charge

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אָרַח

What did you want me to say about MI ultra or echelon? They exist? Yes, but legally to obtain and use info from them a search warrant is needed. We are discussing legality not capability. Another fine distinction you seem unable to grasp.I think I have made a decision to not debate with you any more. I do not need to spend my time with someone that refuses to be civil. You sound like a child and act like one. I will point out your glaring falsehoods on threads but will not reply to your rude posts. This speaks volumes. It shows you are incapable of listening to reasonable aqrguments. You have preconceived ideas and thoughts on every issue. You will not listen to reason, so it is senseless to debate with you. And still you do not reply to my original request for back up on your claims. So typical.Your mantra is truly "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."

Hi Holmes!This was a program that started in previous administrations. You've heard of the NSA massive computer-gathering program called Echelon. 60 Minutes did a story on this in February of 2000. Bill Clinton was still in office. Steve Kroft did it. Here's the transcript and it's all about how we go about making sure we don't nab the wrong people. But to say that this all started with Bush is the same thing that the Democrats are saying about virtually everything that happens in the world, it all started in 2001, and prior to that we were at peace and everybody was singing kumbaya, and there was no problem. There was no global warming. There was no environmental destruction. There wasn't any terrorism. There was none of this stuff until Bush came into office. There was no vote fraud -- no electioneering, none of this -- until Bush came into office. Furthermore... NewsbustersSo is Bush still responsible for breaking everybodies civil liberties?This message has been edited by Tal, 12-20-2005 02:14 PM

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"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist

Yes.