Big Bang or Big Dud? A study of Cosmology and Cosmogony - Origins

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Originally posted by Primordial Egg:

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i knew i wouldn't be able to put it into words... the "now" thingy is a new dimension... but all that is in *this* dimension is encompassed by "now" (eternity)... how things work in that dimension i don't know...

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How was it originally described to you?

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PE

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i'm not sure it ever was, p.e. ... i do know i've never had an original thought, so i don't claim that this is one... but it isn't so hard for me to imagine a place where time as we know it doesn't exist... do things have to be chronological in order to be logically sequential? i don't think so (thinking of God's thoughts for one thing), so if they don't then an eternal "now" is imagineable

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Originally posted by forgiven:

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Originally posted by Primordial Egg:

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i knew i wouldn't be able to put it into words... the "now" thingy is a new dimension... but all that is in *this* dimension is encompassed by "now" (eternity)... how things work in that dimension i don't know...

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How was it originally described to you?

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PE

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i'm not sure it ever was, p.e. ... i do know i've never had an original thought, so i don't claim that this is one... but it isn't so hard for me to imagine a place where time as we know it doesn't exist... do things have to be chronological in order to be logically sequential? i don't think so (thinking of God's thoughts for one thing), so if they don't then an eternal "now" is imagineable

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Well, if thats the case, you can't really argue that the universe can't be actually infinite as we could, in principle, be living in an extended now, with the illusion (Matrix-style!) of time and history.I'm afraid i can't really say I understood your description of heaven, the nearest thing it sounded like to me was the rush experienced by a heroin user, and you never drew any distinction between heaven and hell, and why you'd want to go to the one and not the other, if you can't experience sensation.On a wider scale, I suppose you could say that the two places are identical on a personal sensation basis, but for the fact that God is pleased with you if you're in one, and displeased if you're in the other, which makes about as much sense as any of religion as far as I'm concerned. Its a first for me I must admit,I've never been exposed to the view that heaven and hell are, on a physical basis at least, completely identical.PE------------------
Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense - Carl Sagan

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Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
Well, if thats the case, you can't really argue that the universe can't be actually infinite as we could, in principle, be living in an extended now, with the illusion (Matrix-style!) of time and history.

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i think what i've argued is that the universe can't be an actual infinite based on the impossibility of traversing an infinite number of past events (which would be necessary to arrive at this present event)... iow, an actual infinite can't be added to by subsequent addition or taken from by subsequent subtraction... this is based on time itself being a part of all that came into being via creation (or bb if you prefer, for the sake of this conversation)having said that, i never said such a thing as an actual infinite couldn't exist, only that it couldn't exist *in time*... as for the illusionary nature of time/history, that's always a possibility i guess... it goes against all our experiences (but then if it was true those senses couldn't be trusted anyway)

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I'm afraid i can't really say I understood your description of heaven, the nearest thing it sounded like to me was the rush experienced by a heroin user, and you never drew any distinction between heaven and hell, and why you'd want to go to the one and not the other, if you can't experience sensation.

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heaven (in my view) is proximity to God... hell is the absence of God... i think we can't understand just why we'd prefer one over the other thru words alone... for those who deny the personal relationship between man and God now, in time, it would be impossible to describe

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On a wider scale, I suppose you could say that the two places are identical on a personal sensation basis, but for the fact that God is pleased with you if you're in one, and displeased if you're in the other, which makes about as much sense as any of religion as far as I'm concerned. Its a first for me I must admit,I've never been exposed to the view that heaven and hell are, on a physical basis at least, completely identical.

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PE

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i'm not sure exactly what either heaven or hell will be like, sensation-wise, p.e. ... i'm fairly certain they won't be identical, but that's as far as i feel comfortable going at the moment... my view is just that, my view... i do happen to believe (unlike most christians i know) that there won't be very many in hell, and that heaven will be populated by more people than all the grains of sand on earth...