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Author Topic:   Fully 100% American vs divided allegiance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 146 (267451)
12-10-2005 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by pink sasquatch
12-10-2005 1:47 AM


12 steps Christian style
THE TWELVE STEPS AND THEIR BIBLICAL COMPARISONS
1)We admitted we were powerless over our addictions and compulsive behaviors. That our lives had become unmanageable.
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. (Romans 7:18)
2)Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)
3)Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. (Romans 12:1)
4)Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD. (Lamentations 3:40)
5)Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. (James 5:16a)
6)Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. (James 4:10)
7)Humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
8)Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Luke 6:31)
9)Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23-24)
10)Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! (1 Corinthians 10:12)
11)Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and power to carry that out.
Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly. (Colossians 3:16a)
12)Having had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and practice these principles in all our affairs.
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Galatians 6:1)
------------------------------------------------------------------
When it comes to my deep feelings about how the Bible reveals further truth than secular programs, I chuuck my American Flag and start preaching!
This message has been edited by Phat, 12-10-2005 02:11 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-10-2005 1:47 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 137 of 146 (267456)
12-10-2005 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by pink sasquatch
12-10-2005 1:47 AM


Re: Faith Based organizations
The first step itself is admitting powerlessness. How can you take responsibility for your life if you have no power?
I'll give you an anology to illustrate it for you. There are 2 guys drowning. One sees he is going to drown and calls out for help, and he is saved by the Lifeguard. Heck, he tells the lifeguard he messed up by getting out in the water in the first place when he couldn't swim.
Did he take responsibility for his life, or was he irresponsible?
The 2nd guy decides he doesn't need saving, and he can take of care himself just fine, thank you, and drowns.
Which one was the most responsible?
It's not accepting responsibility for your life to reject the means of saving your life. It's just recklessness.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-10-2005 04:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-10-2005 1:47 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Silent H, posted 12-10-2005 6:34 AM randman has not replied
 Message 140 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2005 9:11 AM randman has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 138 of 146 (267465)
12-10-2005 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by randman
12-09-2005 8:35 PM


Re: Faith Based organizations
Ever hear the term "higher power"? It refers to God. The problem with denying faith-based groups funds to deal with some social problems is that faith-based groups are often more effective, and sometimes almost the only effective method for dealing with certain problems.
1) The argument given for putting money into faith based programs is that they will be able to fill a secular, that is civil function, role. If the argument is that they should be funded because it will involve our govt calling down God for assistance, then such programs are inherently unConstitutional.
2) Most faith based programs are not necessarily about issues which demand God's intervention, even as some sort of moral support. Handing out a welfare check, and giving a person a reference for a job they may be able to take, is not aided by a belief in God.
3) There is no concept that divine intervention works. And if it did then we should not have faith based programs, but rather only one single denomination of religion based program as only one theology could be true (if it is monotheist). Or are you suggesting a shotgun approach to intervention?
4) Even if we are appealing to the faith of a person to help pull them through tough times, that is a personal issue. To coerce a person in need to particular spiritual stances is as I have already mentioned... predatory. You are not really seeking to aid the person, but yourself, in their hour of need.
Now AA is sufficiently non-sectarian to obtain government endorsement, but it is still faith-based. In fact, that's one of the primary ingredients, placing faith in a higher power.
I see others have already been dealing with this. Frankly anyone can substitute anything for the "higher power" and "God" which they mention in their twelve steps and get the same results. They key would be moving the locus of control beyond themselves. Sort of creating an invisible entity that can make decisions for them. It is still just them. And it is as another poster pointed out, shifting from one dependency to another.
That is why they can fail just the same. What if you were to find out that buddhists had less incidence of chemical addiction than others and escape addiction in greater numbers? Would that make you believe that buddhism was the real way and we should make sure to shift money into that religion?
The fact is faith-based charities cannot always be duplicated by secular charities. It's just the way it is.
That's an assertion I'd like some evidence for. Especially the ones that do simple services like hand out checks and refer jobs to people.
I do agree that faith based charities cannot be duplicated in two important ways by secular charities:
1) Secular charities will not proselytize to the children of recipients and create a negative dynamic in that recipients household, in the process of delivering their civil service...
2) Secular charities cannot duplicate the degree of unConstitutionality that faith based programs involve, when merged with public money.
You can argue the greater effect of God in civil service all you want. Such charities existed back in the days of our founding fathers and they denied allowing ties between govt and such services.
Can I ask you this rather obvious question:
If God is all powerful and wanting to help people, and these charities are so great at helping people already, why does God need public money to continue the service he is already providing?
You see randman the purpose is obvious here. God doesn't need tax dollars to survive, human predators using his name do. Ye of little faith.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by randman, posted 12-09-2005 8:35 PM randman has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 139 of 146 (267466)
12-10-2005 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by randman
12-10-2005 4:16 AM


Re: Faith Based organizations
Did he take responsibility for his life, or was he irresponsible?
He was responsible for himself if he used reason to realize he was in trouble, and used a source of obvious aid.
The other example you gave was not about taking responsibility. How would denying you have a problem count as taking responsibility?
Here's a more apt analogy. And just to let you know, I got this one from a minister that was discussing the issue of looking to God for help.
A man is drowning. He realizes he is in trouble and prays to God to save him.
A lifeguard swims to him and offers to help. He says he doesn't need the lifeguard's help as he has prayed to God and God will save him. He goes under for the first time and manages to pull himself back to the surface for another prayer.
A boat pulls up and says they can pull him in. He says he is waiting for God to save him and he is sure God will, so sends the boat away. He goes under for a second time and then claws his way back to the surface.
There is a helicopter waiting and they say they are ready to save him. He declines the offer because he is waiting for God to save him. He then sinks beneath the waves and drowns.
Being a good Xian he find himself in heaven before God. He asks God, "How come you didn't save me when I was drowning?"
God looks puzzled and then answers... "But I sent you a lifeguard, a boat , and a helicopter."
...
No matter the nature of God, his aid will have to be natural. It will be civil. There is no reason that a source of aid has to be stamped with a giant cross, and its helpers actively proselytize to you during a rescue, for it to be from God.
If you really believe in God, why can't a secular govt's rescue boat do as great a job as a faith based rescue boat?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 4:16 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by bkelly, posted 12-10-2005 8:46 PM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 140 of 146 (267480)
12-10-2005 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by randman
12-10-2005 4:16 AM


Re: Faith Based organizations
the third person drowning gives resposibility over his life to god
and drowns
there is a big difference between calling out to a life guard - that you know is trained and dedicated to saving your skin based on secular evidence - and trusting to some unknown factor to provide some other means of rescue.
was that your point?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 4:16 AM randman has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 146 (267641)
12-10-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by randman
12-10-2005 1:23 AM


Re: Religious groups:
That's right. No laws and so the government is not forbidden from ackowledging God, participating in religious expressions, nor from grants to faith-base charities, as these are not laws pertaining to religion.
I just find it amazing that someone with the intelligence necessary to read enough to communicate on the internet cannot interpert a simple statement that has already been interperted by the supreme court.
The government must stay out of religion. Religious expression is religious. Faith based charities are religious. There is no concept of favoring one religion as you did indeed say. The governmen stays out. Got it?
No, you don't get it. Becuase you don't want it.
Carry on randman. Don't let any of those stinking facts get in your way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by randman, posted 12-10-2005 1:23 AM randman has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 146 (267642)
12-10-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Omnivorous
12-08-2005 12:09 PM


polysyllable abuse
Of course, Bush also says that God told him to invade Iraq, but I think that was just a case of brain-cell death from poly-substance abuse.
Maybe that was compounded by his polysyllable abuse. He struggles with two and hurts himself with more. (examples not necessary)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Omnivorous, posted 12-08-2005 12:09 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 146 (267644)
12-10-2005 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Silent H
12-10-2005 6:34 AM


Re: Faith Based organizations
holmes writes:
God looks puzzled and then answers... "But I sent you a lifeguard, a boat , and a helicopter."
Then the news reporter interviewed the life guard, and the boat crew and the helicopter crew and they all said they were atheist. God didn't send them. If you want to find out what god sent, talk to that third guy that RAZD mentioned. Yeah, the one that drowned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Silent H, posted 12-10-2005 6:34 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Silent H, posted 12-11-2005 6:02 AM bkelly has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 144 of 146 (267721)
12-11-2005 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by bkelly
12-10-2005 8:46 PM


Re: Faith Based organizations
Then the news reporter interviewed the life guard, and the boat crew and the helicopter crew and they all said they were atheist. God didn't send them. If you want to find out what god sent, talk to that third guy that RAZD mentioned. Yeah, the one that drowned.
???? RAZD essentially made the same point I was making. It wouldn't matter whether everyone involved was atheist or not.
The point of the story is that help will always come in the form of something real that we can deal with and use in a practical way. That is even if one believes in the supernatural.
Its a cautionary tale to keep theists grounded and not dismiss help from others just because they are not supernatural.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by bkelly, posted 12-10-2005 8:46 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by bkelly, posted 12-11-2005 11:51 AM Silent H has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 146 (267756)
12-11-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Silent H
12-11-2005 6:02 AM


Have you ever been helped?
Hello holmes,
My intent was to agree with you and add a bit of my perspective.
To continue my point: Has anyone, anywhere, anytime, substantiated that they have received help from the supernatural? (To include god, angels, aliens, magic, etc) What about from the dark side, Satan maybe.
(edit for typo)
This message has been edited by bkelly, 12-11-2005 11:52 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Silent H, posted 12-11-2005 6:02 AM Silent H has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 146 of 146 (267871)
12-11-2005 7:14 PM


Falwell has a 24,000 member congregation and 500,000 people who receive his weekly email.
You can join their "with us or against us" campaign pressuring stores to spread the Christian message.
Joining The ”Friend Or Foe’ Campaign
also
Liberty Council "Friend or Foe" Campaign
Please make a tax deductible contribution to promote our Christmas Campaign
The campaign to "reclaim" christmas. LOL. Gotta love those pagan rites....

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

  
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