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Author Topic:   Big Bang or Big Dud? A study of Cosmology and Cosmogony - Origins
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 94 (25064)
11-30-2002 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by John
11-26-2002 7:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
But you are not looking for a particular book. Just reach out and grap one then you're off. Whatever book your hand is on is the present, those behind are the past and those ahead are the fuure. History consists of only those books you've touched (in series) It is a finite set, until you have touched ∞ which won't happen practically speaking.
no, the question revolves around traversing an actually infinite number of points... or better stated, adding to an actually infinite set by subsequent addition... can't be done in the real world

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by John, posted 11-26-2002 7:57 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by John, posted 12-04-2002 9:57 AM forgiven has not replied
 Message 85 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-12-2002 9:42 AM forgiven has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 94 (26483)
12-13-2002 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Primordial Egg
12-12-2002 9:42 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
Hi forgiven,
Something just occurred to me while thinking about actual infinites. If heaven and hell are eternal, and eternity is an actual infinite, which cannot be traversed, then there will never be a point at which you can say "I am in heaven" or "ouch, that hurts!"
Which seems to defeat the purpose.
PE

hi p.e. i just saw this... i think you might not be far off... not sure if this makes sense, but let me give it a shot... my beliefs being as they are, i fully expect to spend eternity in God's heaven... now, to me that means when i die i'll "step" into eternity... but as i do so i believe i'll see (for example) the apolstle paul "stepping" in also... hmmm let's see if i can make it sound more understandable... i see eternity as one unfathomable "now"... imagine a milisecond stretched out into infinity in all directions... there is no time as we know it, tho the dimension of time exists within eternity... if that's even close to so, when we step out of time into eternity, it will simply be "now"
whew that makes no sense eh? oh well, i can conceive it i just can't put it into words... and what i wrote above (whatever that might be lol) would be the same for "hell" (which i don't define as what you probably think i define it as.. heaven is just "in God's presence" and hell is simply "outside God's presence")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-12-2002 9:42 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-16-2002 11:56 AM forgiven has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 94 (26894)
12-16-2002 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Primordial Egg
12-16-2002 11:56 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
hi forgiven
quote:
hi p.e. i just saw this... i think you might not be far off... not sure if this makes sense, but let me give it a shot... my beliefs being as they are, i fully expect to spend eternity in God's heaven... now, to me that means when i die i'll "step" into eternity... but as i do so i believe i'll see (for example) the apolstle paul "stepping" in also... hmmm let's see if i can make it sound more understandable... i see eternity as one unfathomable "now"... imagine a milisecond stretched out into infinity in all directions... there is no time as we know it, tho the dimension of time exists within eternity... if that's even close to so, when we step out of time into eternity, it will simply be "now"
If it is all one elongated "now" and yet one can never experience a "present" (tantamount to traversing an actual infinite - you can never say "I am feeling X", as it relates to the present), then how can you have the sensation of happiness in heaven / unhappiness in hell?
PE

i knew i wouldn't be able to put it into words... the "now" thingy is a new dimension... but all that is in *this* dimension is encompassed by "now" (eternity)... how things work in that dimension i don't know...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-16-2002 11:56 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-17-2002 5:20 AM forgiven has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 94 (26953)
12-17-2002 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Primordial Egg
12-17-2002 5:20 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
quote:
i knew i wouldn't be able to put it into words... the "now" thingy is a new dimension... but all that is in *this* dimension is encompassed by "now" (eternity)... how things work in that dimension i don't know...
How was it originally described to you?
PE

i'm not sure it ever was, p.e. ... i do know i've never had an original thought, so i don't claim that this is one... but it isn't so hard for me to imagine a place where time as we know it doesn't exist... do things have to be chronological in order to be logically sequential? i don't think so (thinking of God's thoughts for one thing), so if they don't then an eternal "now" is imagineable

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-17-2002 5:20 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-17-2002 1:56 PM forgiven has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 94 (27082)
12-17-2002 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Primordial Egg
12-17-2002 1:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
Well, if thats the case, you can't really argue that the universe can't be actually infinite as we could, in principle, be living in an extended now, with the illusion (Matrix-style!) of time and history.
i think what i've argued is that the universe can't be an actual infinite based on the impossibility of traversing an infinite number of past events (which would be necessary to arrive at this present event)... iow, an actual infinite can't be added to by subsequent addition or taken from by subsequent subtraction... this is based on time itself being a part of all that came into being via creation (or bb if you prefer, for the sake of this conversation)
having said that, i never said such a thing as an actual infinite couldn't exist, only that it couldn't exist *in time*... as for the illusionary nature of time/history, that's always a possibility i guess... it goes against all our experiences (but then if it was true those senses couldn't be trusted anyway)
quote:
I'm afraid i can't really say I understood your description of heaven, the nearest thing it sounded like to me was the rush experienced by a heroin user, and you never drew any distinction between heaven and hell, and why you'd want to go to the one and not the other, if you can't experience sensation.
heaven (in my view) is proximity to God... hell is the absence of God... i think we can't understand just why we'd prefer one over the other thru words alone... for those who deny the personal relationship between man and God now, in time, it would be impossible to describe
quote:
On a wider scale, I suppose you could say that the two places are identical on a personal sensation basis, but for the fact that God is pleased with you if you're in one, and displeased if you're in the other, which makes about as much sense as any of religion as far as I'm concerned. Its a first for me I must admit,I've never been exposed to the view that heaven and hell are, on a physical basis at least, completely identical.
PE
i'm not sure exactly what either heaven or hell will be like, sensation-wise, p.e. ... i'm fairly certain they won't be identical, but that's as far as i feel comfortable going at the moment... my view is just that, my view... i do happen to believe (unlike most christians i know) that there won't be very many in hell, and that heaven will be populated by more people than all the grains of sand on earth...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-17-2002 1:56 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
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