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Author | Topic: In defense of nihilism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
buzsaw writes: Hitler had no objective basis for morality. That was obvious from his conduct. Only it's not. What you're doing is labelling a system of objective values "nihilism" because you happen to disagree with those values. You may as well claim that the Popes who presided over the Inquisition didn't have any belief in God or the Bible, because of their conduct. On edit:
The nihilist is free to pick and choose morality calls. Ultimately, everybody has this freedom. You yourself can choose any interpretation of the Bible you wish, or you can throw it all out the window at any moment. You're only limited by your desires, as is the nihilist or myself, and I have no desire to commit genocide. This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Thu, 01-Dec-2005 01:46 PM
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: On moral questions, there does exist answers that are clearly defined as right, and are objective. But we do not understand it, we see ourselves and the others around us, and we only know the opinions, and the environments that give us these opinions. Truth exists, we must search for it, and we must understand that all truth comes from God, because as humans the subjective concepts that we endlessly debate, are not truth, we can only catch glimpses of truth, we attempt to grasp it, and it haunts us. You deny that absolute truth exists, because you see only on a plane that exists within our own lives and interactions, you must know that objective truth is not readily concievable to us because of our nature.
quote: The attitude of relativism gives people the right to not think about things. jayed em
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: The bible has revolutionized the way millions of people think. Fulfilled Prophecy on a large scale is new, if not only in the Bible.
I think we owe more to the Greeks than to the Bible for our Western notions of human dignity, and more to the brave women of the past several centuries for improved conditions for women in the West, improvements largely condemned and resisted by Christian ecclesiastical authorities and congregants alike. Even if we hypothetically grant the existence of Mr. Bones, there seems to have been no need of his efforts to make the world suspicious of Christian actions and motives. As for abuse of animals, please feel free to visit my By their fruits shall ye know them thread. I'd be interested in your take on what the Christian profiteers are doing to the natural world. But the impact of Christianity has been--to put it mildly--a mixed blessing to the West: intolerance, torture, crusades, political oppression of other religions and even other Christian sects. Judge the religion, not the religious. jayed em
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
prophex writes:
If there are answers, why are we unable to find them? Why do different cultures provide different answers?
On moral questions, there does exist answers that are clearly defined as right, and are objective. But we do not understand it, we see ourselves and the others around us, and we only know the opinions, and the environments that give us these opinions.
I will take that as an admission that you have no evidence to support your view.
Truth exists, we must search for it, and we must understand that all truth comes from God, because as humans the subjective concepts that we endlessly debate, are not truth, we can only catch glimpses of truth, we attempt to grasp it, and it haunts us.
Truth is a human invention.
You deny that absolute truth exists, ...
I made that statement only with respect to moral truth. The issue is more complex with respect to other kinds of truth.
..., because you see only on a plane that exists within our own lives and interactions, you must know that objective truth is not readily concievable to us because of our nature.
On the contrary, because of my study of human cognition, I have a pretty good idea of where truth comes from. That's why I say that truth is a human invention.
quote: The attitude of relativism gives people the right to not think about things.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: In a limited plane of existence, truth is a subjective concept, based on human opinions, actually invented through subjective beliefs of mankind. But there is more to truth than what you see in it, it is of a divine creator, and through our lives we strive to possess it, we can't attain truth through reason, and logic, it comes from ourselves, and through God. To ultimately find truth is to reach Nirvana, is to be enveloped by the heavens, truth can be expressed in a creator, man only understands truth in our world. But absolute truth is non-existant in our minds, we are unable to understand, or even scratch the surface of the absolute. We are no Gods. On absolute truth from wikipedia,
They are statements that are often claimed to emanate from the very nature of the universe, God, human nature, or some other ultimate essence or transcendental signifier. Through a sort of transendance, Sidhartha ultimately discovered truth as he sat by the river, in Hesse's book. these walls are paper thin and everyone hears every little sound.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Funkaloyd writes: Only it's not. What you're doing is labelling a system of objective values "nihilism" because you happen to disagree with those values. You may as well claim that the Popes who presided over the Inquisition didn't have any belief in God or the Bible, because of their conduct. The popes, unlike Hitler and the commies, regardless of their brutality, did use/missuse the Bible for what they considered objective values. For every deviation of scripture, they missused isolated segments of scripture as an excuse, pulling out of context to subjectively justify their evil deeds. Hitler simply abused his power to suit his whims and desires with total disregard of any code of ethics or accountability. He was limited only by his desires and the powers of force that eventually brought him down. On edit: Buz: "The nihilist is free to pick and choose morality calls."
Funkaloyd writes: Ultimately, everybody has this freedom. You yourself can choose any interpretation of the Bible you wish, or you can throw it all out the window at any moment. You're only limited by your desires, as is the nihilist or myself, and I have no desire to commit genocide. No, everybody does not have freedom to pick and choose morality. Regardless of my interpretation of the Bible, as a Biblical fundamentalist Christian, I have subjected myself to the morality of what I regard as God's revelation and moral code for man. I fear the consequences of offending my maker, the majesty of the universe who inspired the writing of the holy scriptures. My desires have been subjected to a higher power. I assume the responsibilities.....I enjoy the blessings. I disregard the responsibilities...... no blessings. It's worked that way for 60 years now. The nihilist is limited only by desire. If he/she desires a moral code to follow, fine. If he/she chooses genocide, theft or whatever, woe to the victims and society becomes subjected to the relative whims of nihilism when encountered by the nihilist. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
In a limited plane of existence, truth is a subjective concept, based on human opinions, actually invented through subjective beliefs of mankind.
That's not what I meant when I suggested that truth is a human invention. Language is a human invention, and truth is a concept that we needed to invent as part of language, in order to be able to express agreement and disagreement. Philosophers and theologians have mystified truth. They have made it out to be something which stands alone independent of language. But this only leads to an unnecessary mysticism.
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
You desire to be a fundamentalist Christian, so you choose to be a fundamentalist Christian. If for some reason you no longer had such a desire, or if another overpowered it, then you would no doubt change your moral code of choice and cease to be fundamentalist Christian. It works the same for everyone.
buzsaw writes: Hitler simply abused his power to suit his whims and desires with total disregard of any code of ethics or accountability. So you say. But everything that I've so far heard or read of Hitler's suggests that he believed that objective values exist, and unless you have some evidence to demonstrate that Hitler was a nihilist, I think it's a given that he believed what he preached. Here's the only mention of nihilism in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf:
quote: Try and count how many times he uses totally un-nihilistic words like "evil" and "duty" in the same work.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Call it a nihilistic monarchy if you wish. Its funny though, because Monarchy got its power from claiming it was given by God. Monarchies of the ilk you describe have a habit of starting revolutions. When a government is made accountable for their actions to the people, it doesn't matter whether the people in power believe they will be held accountable in the next life.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
So you say. But everything that I've so far heard or read of Hitler's suggests that he believed that objective values exist, and unless you have some evidence to demonstrate that Hitler was a nihilist, I think it's a given that he believed what he preached. I've studied this matter rather thoroughly (in fact there's thread on evc about it). Hitler's moral standard is: what is natural is good. It is natural and therefore good for a superior people to dominate an inferior people.
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
Right: the naturalistic fallacy. That also shows that, contrary to iano's claim, you don't need to believe in any god to believe in objectivity.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Funkaloyd writes: You desire to be a fundamentalist Christian, so you choose to be a fundamentalist Christian. If for some reason you no longer had such a desire, or if another overpowered it, then you would no doubt change your moral code of choice and cease to be fundamentalist Christian. It works the same for everyone.buzsaw writes: Hitler simply abused his power to suit his whims and desires with total disregard of any code of ethics or accountability. As long as I'm a fundie Christian, I am subjected to a code of ethics which Hitler was not. If I change to abandon all inhibitions and ethics, I would consider myself more nihilistic. I might then be a Hitler or a nice guy, depending on my personal whims and desires.
Funkaloyd writes: So you say. But everything that I've so far heard or read of Hitler's suggests that he believed that objective values exist, and unless you have some evidence to demonstrate that Hitler was a nihilist, I think it's a given that he believed what he preached. Nihilists have personal values void of a code of ethics. Their values were based on no code of ethics as were Hitler's. He murdered whom he hated, and that happened to be homosexuals, ethnic classes, et al. His values were no more objective than the nihilist. If you disagree, please explain the difference. Here's the only mention of nihilism in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf:
Funkaloyd writes: quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...the attack against dogma is comparable to an attack against the general laws on which the State is founded. And so this attack would finally lead to complete political anarchy if it were successful, just as the attack on religion would lead to a worthless religious nihilism. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try and count how many times he uses totally un-nihilistic words like "evil" and "duty" in the same work. Based on his words, you have a pretty good argument, but did he really practice what he preached? What was his code of ethics? Did he operate within the laws of the land? What about Stalin and communist dictators? How are/were they different than nihilists? The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
His values were no more objective than the nihilist. If you disagree, please explain the difference. Hitler believed that morality is objective, whereas a nihilist would not, by definition. He was simply not a nihilist.
What about Stalin and communist dictators? How are/were they different than nihilists? Communism holds that it is wrong for the means of production to be controlled by the bourgeoisie. That's not a very nihilistic belief. This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Fri, 02-Dec-2005 05:43 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1972 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Why, I do declare, you maybe getting warmer. Flawed though it is, it is rescued in dramatic fashion near the end with the "No syncophants" statement. This is as good a paraphrase as I have yet heard of the reason for giving free will.
I am curious as to what methodology will be employed to restore the situation. God employed sheer genius. What can Robin do I wonder
O my people, what have you done to yourselves? Any chance you could draw out the motivation a little further too. There is some serious stuff going on here but we're lacking on some character building. We need to know why as well as how.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
There is some serious stuff going on here but we're lacking on some character building. We need to know why as well as how. Iano, my idea is half-baked, and for that reason, the writing is poor (a typical problem I have--impatience). But you are right about the serious stuff. I hope to do better when I have figured out what the hell I think I am doing.
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