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Author Topic:   How can anyone say that this universe was designed for Humanity?
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 60 (26398)
12-12-2002 8:05 AM


With 90% of the universe unavailable to us, dark matter, nuetrenos, and the like, I wounder how can people claim that all of this was made for us?
Forget that even Earth itself along with the Sun is less 1% of one-trillionth of the normal matter we can interact with, if we could even get there, why is all of this for us?
Any ideas?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Delshad, posted 12-12-2002 8:29 AM Mr. Davies has replied
 Message 7 by judge, posted 02-10-2003 2:55 AM Mr. Davies has not replied
 Message 12 by THEONE, posted 04-19-2003 10:12 PM Mr. Davies has not replied
 Message 14 by Syamsu, posted 04-20-2003 12:09 AM Mr. Davies has not replied
 Message 18 by stevo3890, posted 06-11-2003 9:19 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 60 (26399)
12-12-2002 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 8:05 AM


Good question Davies.
But one queston though, how do we know what is or is not meant to be for us, wheather has had, has, or is to be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 8:05 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 9:20 AM Delshad has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 60 (26406)
12-12-2002 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Delshad
12-12-2002 8:29 AM


What is not for us? Well, I can't really answer that without conditions. If something already belongs to another, well then I would think that means it is not for us. However, as our own history has shown, military prowess can change all of that.
What I'm really getting at is the line of though that points to the "fine tuning" of the universe to support our lifeforms. My point is with so much of the uuniverse unavailable to us and or unable to be interacted with by us, how can we say that the universe is fine tuned?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Delshad, posted 12-12-2002 8:29 AM Delshad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Delshad, posted 12-12-2002 1:12 PM Mr. Davies has replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 60 (26426)
12-12-2002 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 9:20 AM


Mr. Davies- "What is not for us? Well, I can't really answer that without conditions. If something already belongs to another, well then I would think that means it is not for us. However, as our own history has shown, military prowess can change all of that."
Yes, but you have to keep in mind that it isn`t objects that adjust to beings, rather beings adjusts to objects.
Mr.Davies- "What I'm really getting at is the line of thought that points to the "fine tuning" of the universe to support our lifeforms. My point is with so much of the universe unavailable to us and or unable to be interacted with by us, how can we say that the universe is fine tuned?"
I agree, but why do I get the feeling that you think that all theists believe that the universe has been fine-tuned for them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 9:20 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 1:47 PM Delshad has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 60 (26428)
12-12-2002 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Delshad
12-12-2002 1:12 PM


quote:
Yes, but you have to keep in mind that it isn`t objects that adjust to beings, rather beings adjusts to objects.
No argument here. I was making a comment to those who hold the position that "If the constant for gravity was 0.000345645????% different, we would not exist" or words to that effect. The other favorite I've seen is the "Earth is exactly in the right place", the poster known as Tranquility Base seems to like that one.
I would answer that life makes use of what's around. This may be far to simplistic an analogy, I would not expect a fresh water fish to come out of a salty sea. The life we see, as you correctly pointed out, adjusts itself to the conditions, not the other way around.
quote:
I agree, but why do I get the feeling that you think that all theists believe that the universe has been fine-tuned for them?
I do not lump all theists in expressing that conclusion. That would be a gross error. I know some feel that it is their god who created everything but "let the dice fall where they may" when they created the universe. They look to see how their deity created everything within the realm of science but keep their faith and believe their god was behind it all.
I have no issue with that. I will not even ridicule or attempt to engage them in a game of "Well your god don't exist" or "Show me the evidence" as they keep there god to themselves, although all too happy in sharing them with you if you ask, so I have no need to challenge them on it. We respect each other's views and let it go at that.
The question I have is to those who think that their deity created it all for us, even those things that we could never see, save using science.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Delshad, posted 12-12-2002 1:12 PM Delshad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by John, posted 12-12-2002 2:49 PM Mr. Davies has not replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 04-19-2003 10:40 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 60 (26433)
12-12-2002 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 1:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
No argument here. I was making a comment to those who hold the position that "If the constant for gravity was 0.000345645????% different, we would not exist" or words to that effect. The other favorite I've seen is the "Earth is exactly in the right place", the poster known as Tranquility Base seems to like that one.
I tried to start a topic on this subject but it attracted little attention from the creationists.
EvC Forum: Our perfect place in the heavens..
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 1:47 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6520 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 7 of 60 (31836)
02-10-2003 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 8:05 AM


With 90% of the universe unavailable to us, dark matter, nuetrenos, and the like, I wounder how can people claim that all of this was made for us?
Forget that even Earth itself along with the Sun is less 1% of one-trillionth of the normal matter we can interact with, if we could even get there, why is all of this for us?
Any ideas?
Judge:
I have never heard anyone say the universe was made for us.
Who said that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 8:05 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-10-2003 4:16 AM judge has not replied
 Message 9 by John, posted 02-10-2003 9:08 AM judge has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 60 (31840)
02-10-2003 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by judge
02-10-2003 2:55 AM


umm... the anthropic principle guys?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by judge, posted 02-10-2003 2:55 AM judge has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 60 (31853)
02-10-2003 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by judge
02-10-2003 2:55 AM


quote:
Judge:
I have never heard anyone say the universe was made for us.
Who said that?

It is a fairly common claim for creationists to make. I've heard it too many times to count. It is really sort-of the original intelligent design argument.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by judge, posted 02-10-2003 2:55 AM judge has not replied

  
bambooguy
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 60 (32901)
02-22-2003 11:18 PM


Here's another question. Why aren't cockroaches better than us? You'd think that nature wouldn't waste her time on humans if cockroachs out-reproduce us, can survive asteroids falling from space, or survive nuclear holocaust. Why bother with 'advanced' civilization?!?!
Evan

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Gzus, posted 02-23-2003 4:53 PM bambooguy has not replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 60 (32956)
02-23-2003 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by bambooguy
02-22-2003 11:18 PM


Exactly. Nature is unbiased in its selection, civilisation really is just a survival gimmick, same as living in drainage pipes.
On the original topic. which is more possible to prove?
The Universe was created by a loving God for his amusement
The Universe was created by Satan for his amusement
The Universe just blinked into existence for no apparent reason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by bambooguy, posted 02-22-2003 11:18 PM bambooguy has not replied

  
THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 60 (37371)
04-19-2003 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 8:05 AM


quote:
With 90% of the universe unavailable to us, dark matter, nuetrenos, and the like, I wounder how can people claim that all of this was made for us?
Forget that even Earth itself along with the Sun is less 1% of one-trillionth of the normal matter we can interact with, if we could even get there, why is all of this for us?
Any ideas?
As I try to attempt to answer this question, please, keep in mind that this question in itself is not by any means scientific. "Why is all of this for us?" is purely theological or phylosophical question and cannot be subjected to evidence. Some creationist use statement like "If the constant for gravity was 0.000345645????% different, we would not exist" as a tool to strengthen their belive. And since it does strengthen it for them, they think that by screaming about it they'll prove something to the world. This IS naive.
As far as a theological belive of the whole universe being created for us. It goes back to the issue of free will. We are the only KNOWN species with this quality. All animals, mamals, paracites, etc. are operating on instinct. Humans are the only once above this. Why? Out of hundreds of thousands(millions?) of different animals (paracites, mamals....) we are the only ones? We are unique. No matter what you belive, I think you'll agree with that. Maybe some of you think that it's not important because we can't survive "nuclear holocost" or "asteroids falling from space" but it does not change the fact that we are unique IN THE SENSE OF HAVING FREE WILL OR MAKE DECISIONS. (not unique by materialistic design. And by decisions i don't mean choosing icecream over cake, that's preference).
Keeping in mind the other theistic doctrine of everything happening for a reason, there must be one for us having this unique trait. Since this trait is also that one of Creator (he made us in his image), some theist belive that it is this trait, properly used will bring us closer and eventually reunite us with G-d.(this is a topic of it's own) No other being has Free Will and cannot fulfill this purpose of reuniting with G-d. Therefore, they're just here to assist us with the Divine Goal.
You might say that we "don't know 90% of the universe" and there maybe some alien life forms... maybe, maybe not, it's the same as beliveing in G-d.
This is just a theistic answer to a purely theistic question. Nothing even remotely scientific(in materialistic term) here.
[This message has been edited by TheOne, 04-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 8:05 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 60 (37372)
04-19-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 1:47 PM


I would answer that life makes use of what's around. This may be far to simplistic an analogy, I would not expect a fresh water fish to come out of a salty sea. The life we see, as you correctly pointed out, adjusts itself to the conditions, not the other way around.
But part of the "fine-tuning" argument is that conditions and physical laws have to be just so not only to have life as we see it today, but to allow for the development of any kind of life, in the loosest definition we have. For instance, in order to have life, we must have matter. But that matter must be able to interact and form compounds with different chemical properties, etc. and so on.
There's all kinds of imaginable universes that won't support life of any kind. Ones with no matter. Ones where the matter is spread out so thin it never interacts. Ones where the universe has so much matter it collapses before life can form. Ones where there's so much energy and heat that compounds can never be stable.
That's the conditions they're referring to in "fine-tuning" arguments - conditions that could prevent any kind of life, not just the kind we have.
Designed for humanity? Not likely. But certainly, out of all possible universes, the subset with inital conditions suited for the eventual development of life must be a very small minority...
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 1:47 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5667 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 14 of 60 (37376)
04-20-2003 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Davies
12-12-2002 8:05 AM


I think that depends on where you see purpose in the universe. Most people would see people, and their emotions, as the most purposeful things in the universe. I think if there were creatures with greater emotionality then people, then we would think of the universe being created for them.
Another way to look at it, is to look at the earth, as it is now with modern development. Obviously people have massive impact on the earth. Perhaps later people would have massive impact on the entire universe, in the same way they have on the earth.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-12-2002 8:05 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

Replies to this message:
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THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 60 (37377)
04-20-2003 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Syamsu
04-20-2003 12:09 AM


quote:
I think that depends on where you see purpose in the universe.
Exactly. And as some Evolutionist repetedly claimed here, they don't even bother with finding out "purpose" because it can't be "empirically" tested. That's why it's hard for them to understand "why aren't cockroaches better than us?"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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