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Author Topic:   Heathcare in the USA is terrible!
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 26 (262488)
11-22-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
11-22-2005 11:59 AM


quote:
Evo Psych is the evolutionary version of ID, forcing science back into deductive reasoning.
Not all of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 11-22-2005 11:59 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Silent H, posted 11-22-2005 5:44 PM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 17 of 26 (262509)
11-22-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nator
11-22-2005 3:58 PM


Not all of it.
I swear I am sorry I said anything in this thread about it! Any arguments on my comments regarding evo psych please put them somewhere else.
Healthcare in the USA is terrible! I'm sure we can agree on that within this thread.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 11-22-2005 3:58 PM nator has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 26 (262511)
11-22-2005 5:48 PM


Here is one of the recent threads discussing evo-psych, linked the first post in that thread to discussing it.

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 19 of 26 (262515)
11-22-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
11-22-2005 3:39 PM


I bumped evo psych threads
I bumped two of the more important evo psych threads so we can move discussion there. One is in the misc topics forum area, and the other is in the biological evolution forum area.
Back to healthcare!

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2005 3:39 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 20 of 26 (262626)
11-23-2005 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
11-22-2005 1:51 PM


Re: uh, wrong
However, if they need preventative care or suffer a serious injury, they will be financially ruined...what a great system. And just blaming the parents for the lack of health care of children is the same old conservative argument that people are poor because they want to be/to lazy to be otherwise. The fact is, no other industrialized country has as many uninsured children (or people in general) as the US, no other industrialized country forces its citizens to face a decision of risking financial ruin because too high insurance premiums even if they have a job which would force them into poverty. You were never able to address any of the points I brought up with the statistics by the largest pediatrics society of America (who you basically called biased incompentent statistics cheats) and I see you are still unable to substantiate your points. At least you are consistent.

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 21 of 26 (262627)
11-23-2005 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
11-22-2005 11:59 AM


quote:
Actually it is true that the tech sector does have some cool trends. Unfortunately social and legal trends are having impact on those tech sectors, curtialing their achievements and sometimes twisting them into bad things. Then again that is nothing new I suppose.
It depends on the view you take of things. The US is definitely freely giving up its edge in science and technology to appease the ignorance of the majority of its population who rather watch the psychic channel. But places like Singapore, China, and India are quickly sensing the opportunities (in health related fields, biotech and computer science in particular) and the science will proceed. I take the long view that I don't really care where the science progresses or the discoveries are made. Just that it happens. If the US wants to turn the clock back and become a nation of knuckle walking drooling maniacs..so be it. Others will jump in to take advantage of a newly cleared niche in science and tech..this is already happening.

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 Message 23 by EZscience, posted 11-23-2005 4:28 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 22 of 26 (262733)
11-23-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Whirlwind
11-22-2005 7:38 AM


US healthcare
As others have pointed out, it is not limited except by cost.
We have the best health *technology* in the world, but too many people trying to make a fortune from it, including a lot of people who have nothing to do with the actual delivery of health care.
The health insurance industry is largely to blame for our 'medicine for profit' system. They spend more of our insurance premiums trying to shift the burden of responsability onto others than they do actually paying doctors to heal people. This means they pay more for bloody clerks and lawyers than they do for doctors.
The system is so deeply entrenched, with so many rich investors making fortunes off it, that it is a now a multi-headed monster that will not die no matter how mnay people want to kill it.
As soon as you have someone proposing a 'not-for-profit, government-run system' (like the the Clintons did) you have a whole bunch of rich Repiglicans buying advertising to convince the masses they will be giving up control of their health care choices. A real pile of crap, but so many are so gullible in the US.
The only way to keep a cap on profiteering from medicine is to have it run by the government, but it's not going to happen in the US anytime soon. There are too many rich people making money off managed care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Whirlwind, posted 11-22-2005 7:38 AM Whirlwind has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 23 of 26 (262734)
11-23-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mammuthus
11-23-2005 5:20 AM


Mammuthus writes:
The US is definitely freely giving up its edge in science and technology to appease the ignorance of the majority of its population who rather watch the psychic channel.
I know it would appear like that from over in Europe, but there is still a large core of serious scientific endeavor in the US that is aghast at all the recent developments. The current ridiculous parodies of science you hear about are just political ploys being used by power-hungry politicians to manipulate those blinded by religious dogma and completely ignorant of science. Unfortunately, there are far too many of them. Supposed challenges to evolutionary theory, ID in the schools, it's all about appeasing ignorance for sake of getting voted into positions of power.
However, when those 2-faced politicians in power have real problem they need to solve (bird flu comes to mind) who do you think they have to turn to? It's just that we scientists as a group have never formed a politically powerful lobby group - something we should have done 50 years ago when science had a lot more respect from the public in this country than it does now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Mammuthus, posted 11-23-2005 5:20 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Mammuthus, posted 11-24-2005 4:19 AM EZscience has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 24 of 26 (262808)
11-24-2005 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by EZscience
11-23-2005 4:28 PM


Hey EZscience, great to see you posting again!
quote:
I know it would appear like that from over in Europe, but there is still a large core of serious scientific endeavor in the US that is aghast at all the recent developments. The current ridiculous parodies of science you hear about are just political ploys being used by power-hungry politicians to manipulate those blinded by religious dogma and completely ignorant of science. Unfortunately, there are far too many of them. Supposed challenges to evolutionary theory, ID in the schools, it's all about appeasing ignorance for sake of getting voted into positions of power.
I should clarify, I am American. I live in Germany but only the last 4 years. I am moving back to the US next year. I was there during the Clinton attempts to create a national health care system.
there may be a core of scientists that are aghast by the rampand stupidity of the American electorate but I still believe this is strongly affecting the US scientific standing and ability to conduct research. First, the weaker the US education system becomes, particularly in the sciences, the smaller the pool of talented homegrown scientists the US will produce. Most international comparisons of scientific literacy and education place the US very far from the top of the list. Second, a consequence of the anti-science rhetoric is that funding for science (non-military) is either flat or reduced, at a time when competitors such as Singapore, China, and India are pumping in lots of cash. Third, when politics trumps science, you see things like the FDA's blatantly lying about the effects of the morning after pill to appease the conservatives. This will long term stifle private sector investment in science if people working in the most promising areas (stem cell research for example) don't think they will ever be able to market their discoveries and get a return on their investment. Finally, because of many of these problems, and the brain dead visa process, the US, which relies incredibly on foreign researchers, is now facing declining interest from foreign scientists. They are being attracted back to their home countries or places that compete with the US. The long term effects of all of these problems will be a decline in US science which will be a catastrophe for the economy not to mention the general intellectual well being of the country.
In 20 years, when another bird flu strain comes along, it may be India we turn to for a solution to the problem..not to US scientists at this rate. They will be forced to say, goddidit and pray and hope they don't get sick while the rest of the world devlopes vaccines...hmmm now that I think about it...Tamiflu is developed by Roche..and they are a Swiss company...maybe 20 years is too long an estimate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by EZscience, posted 11-23-2005 4:28 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by EZscience, posted 11-24-2005 8:28 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 25 of 26 (262842)
11-24-2005 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Mammuthus
11-24-2005 4:19 AM


Hey EZscience, great to see you posting again!
Thanks. I have been so tied up with writing at work I haven't had the time to write for fun in a while.
Yes, I agree with everything you say.
I have been observing all these unfortunate trends here that only seemed to really gather momentum over the past 5 years under the Bush administration. I have been a researcher working in the US since 1996 so I am actually one of those foreign scientists you speak of - if Canadian can be considered 'foreign'.
What you say about private sector investment in the sciences is true, but only one side of the coin. There is a also lot of important science that will only get done if it is sponsored by the government because it doesn't lead to patents or anything you can profit from. This type of research is suffering even more from neglect. Our present government is gutting funding for basic research of the type that stands to most benefit the public.
To tie this into the health care issue (and keep this all on topic), what we see in medical research is private sector investment in drug development to the point where that is now the predominant type of medical research. Who is going to develop preventive medicine if the government doesn't fund it? No money to be made off that, is there? Much more profitable to let big corporations sell people toxic processed foods and then charge them an arm and a leg for treatment when they get sick. Now that we have mostly doctors whose exclusive approach to healing is to prescribe drugs - the real beneficiary is big pharma - not the patients.
You are also right that the government is really shooting itself in the foot by making it so difficult for foreign scientists to study and work here. I actually answered a survey from the NSF on what steps I thought could be taken to induce more American students into graduate science programs and among the alternatives to choose from was that we should make it more difficult for foreign students to study here (!!??). My response was, What are you guys trying to do - shut down my research program? I have never had more than 5% of applicants for an assistantship who were remotely qualified Americans. So yes, we appear to be neither providing the quality of public education, nor the appropriate incentives, for encouraging the production of home-grown scientists, while at the same time making it more difficult for international scientists to study here. It does not bode well for the future - and I am still a long way from retirement !
Somehow we need to reawaken the public respect for science and scientists that the American public had back int he 50's. Now it seems science and all its public benefits are taken for granted by a very uninformed and uneducated general public. I am at a loss to understand why more people can't see that reliance on religious doctrine running counter to science is a slippery path backwards into the dark ages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Mammuthus, posted 11-24-2005 4:19 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Mammuthus, posted 11-24-2005 9:52 AM EZscience has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 26 of 26 (262884)
11-24-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by EZscience
11-24-2005 8:28 AM


I know where you are coming from. I'm only recently back for a short EVC stint myself...published 6 papers this year and am in various stages on 7 more...getting sick of writing.
quote:
Somehow we need to reawaken the public respect for science and scientists that the American public had back int he 50's. Now it seems science and all its public benefits are taken for granted by a very uninformed and uneducated general public. I am at a loss to understand why more people can't see that reliance on religious doctrine running counter to science is a slippery path backwards into the dark ages.
What I find really odd having lived in and visited various european countries is the amazing interest laypeople have in science here compared to the US. Scientific shows, documentaries, etc occupy a large segment of both the television schedule and the books that are sold. So from an early age, the kids are hooked on science.
People are also very interested in healthcare, how it is provided, its quality and what is being done to them when in the hospital. I have unfortunately been in the hospital more often than I would like in Germany (had a bike accident) and managed to screw my eye up on another occasion. The detailed explanations by the doctors ..even for routine checkups is fantastic...in the US I often knew more than the doctors I went to. Bottom line, I can get into fairly interesting scientific conversations with laypeople in Germany that I could never imagine in the US outside of a university setting.
Why do people lack this interest in the US? I am not sure. Scientists tend to be demonized in the media compared to europe and people are more fixed on getting rich quickly in the US than in europe..and getting rich quick with little effort is certianly not common in science. But cultural issues aside, I think it is the complete lack of emphasis on quality education in the US and particularly in science that is part of the problem. It is considered hard or that those who understand it or work in science are elitist. We also live in a technical world where you can live comfortably in complete ignorance...but both from a cultural standpoint and an economic one, this is a disaster for the US...it mandates that we become technology dependent on foreigners and foreign countries. The easy road of following mythology to the detriment of science will long term ruin the US economically if it does not wake up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by EZscience, posted 11-24-2005 8:28 AM EZscience has not replied

  
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