Vatican snubs ID

"It'll probably make them (Southern Baptists and the like) support ID even more." Good Point.When you have the POPE's men saying that ID is full of (well, that word might not be suitable for this forum), then you're getting pretty pathetic. Hey? And the Pope is known to be conservative when it comes to issues like this. If he doesn't say anything about it and he doesn't crucify this astronomer/priest, then more power to him!Oh well, the vatican, despite having a majority of the Christians in this country as followers (that's correct, right? Catholics are the largest single christian organization in the country?) still probably won't influence things here, much. I really wouldn't be surprised if the Veggie Tales show started saying that evolution is against god. Basically, i've always considered that as you take a cucumber, a tomato, and Pat Robertson, put 'em together, and there you go. Veggie Tales. But that's off subject.I wonder how many of this guys cohorts agree with him? That would be something nice to know...catholics have always been known for making wiser decisions RECENTLY than protestants, and, except for some of the statements that the Pope has said, I think that they're doing the right thing by keeping ID out of most of their schools biology classrooms.I'm totally shocked by this, really. Can you tell?Wiseman45
"I.D. stands for Idiotic Dogma."This message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-21-2005 01:52 PM

The subject says it all guys. Even when you have certain "scientists" on your side, really when you're a proponent of ID you cannot call yourself a true scientist.Now, ID people shoot back at that by saying that I can't consider other options, and that I'm violating the big 'ol science book of rules by doing so. However, I think that every wise person here agrees with me. You shouldn't be able replace, or even compete with a theory with 150 years of research and testing behind it, by saying "But look at this pretty flower! How can that be an accident?"Evolution actually explains why there are flowers, clearly. Plants developed the pretty colors to attract things to land on them (like bees) and spread their pollen to other flowers so that the species can continue. SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, in other words the theory's #1 rule. I bet all you people who have been educated in the issue knew that. Want me to continue? "But what about eyes?" they say.Eyes allow species to see, and were developed for that purpose. duh. The reason most land and sea animals have them in some way or another is because all species are related in some way or another. For instance, a rabbit is related to a fish because reptiles are the descendants of fish and mammals are the descendants of reptiles, if I'm correct about that. (feel free to go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong.) They seem very complicated, and that's the product of millions of years of evolution. When you have that much time, anything can get pretty complicated. The notion that some god or other supernatural being (although for most ID people, that would be the Christian god) just raised his/her hands and made things the way they are is totally rediculous. Come on.But you can go ahead and believe that, you have a right too, that's the beauty of the system. Just don't try to impose your ideas on others, please, especially if you have to break or change a rule in order to do it, as the Kansas Board of Ed. has done. Basically, they've removed the rule that says institutionalized (if I spelled that right) scientific theories must be based on observable natural phenomena. ID is not based on testable, observable natural phenomena, its based on assumptions, like "things are just too complicated..." or "how can that be an accident..." or whatever. That's not testable. So its not a theory. Its barely a hypothesis.Now, I'm going to leave open room for a god or gods because I don't know, and I don't think anyone can know for sure, what started life. What created, if you will, the first single-celled bacterium from which all species are related to in some way or another. Could've been god. Could've been another accident. But noone knows. Just to demonstrate that I'm not an aethiest, and if god can go anywhere in science, its there.Despite all this overwhelming evidence though against ID and creationism, the debate goes on because fundamentalists (with tax free, donated money I'd imagine) continue to lobby governmental bodies, like the Kansas Board of Education, to be controlled by their ilk, or at least people who agree with them. And as long as that continues, with majorities occaisionally going to the fringe right in some states, the debate will continue because in education-based government bodies, that is always the first thing that fundamentalists do. Downplay evolution. At least, as of late.This message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-21-2005 01:48 PMThis message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-21-2005 01:49 PMThis message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-21-2005 01:50 PM

Again, I probably went overboard: the message that I meant to deliver was:ID is fine. Its just a philisophical/religous belief. I don't agree with it, as I hopefully clearly stated, but its fine to discuss it in a public forum like this one or some other area where all ideas are allowed. However, you cannot call it a scientific theory (in order to get in in schools) because of this fact: it isn't.The only evidence that ID people have to support their statement is that evolution does not explain everything, and really there are only a few "missing links" such as the origin of the original life form or forms (like bacteria), for example, and you cannot SCIENTIFICALLY fill in that or anything else for that matter by saying "god or some other very powerful supernatural being did it, have a nice day."And it most certainly cannot be taught in biology classrooms alongside evolution. It would fit very well in a theology class because its a good less conservative religious idea, and theology of course isn't usually a mandatory class while biology is. But the whole thing is, that's not what the K-State board of Ed. is trying to do, and its not what the recently deposed Dover board members wanted to do. They're trying to impose ID and other creation-based ideas into a scientific forum. Dover failed of course, but now things in Kansas have really gone down the toilet because this essential rule in Science is now missing in Kansas. "A scientific theory must be based on observable, testable, natural phenomena." That opens the door for not only ID but pure creationism, astrology, the belief that evil spirits cause disease and not viruses, that we all live in the Matrix, yada yada yada. Although probably only ID will be introduced ever, (and even then, only if the board gets re-elected, which they won't) still, you're changing the rules, and you just can't do that.Just as a side note, because conservatives go too far like this, and stuff like this (and the whole Terry Schivao right-to-die thing, and the debate over Stem Cell research, and whatever else where conservatives have probably gone overboard), a political backlash is pretty imminent in America. Unless the fringe right changes the things its doing on a national scale, the liberals will have control of the senate, and probably congress, in 2006. At least, that's what will happen in my opinion.Well, I'm eager to get a reply ASAP,
maybe my position will be more clear now.Wiseman45This message has been edited by wiseman45, 11-21-2005 07:35 PM

Well, the catholic church's actions (and, just in case you didn't know I'm not a catholic) are very commendable. I mean, you can either listen to the Pope's chief astronomer (and there is a conservative pope) and think that he's just saying stuff to get attention, or to fold in the poker game vs. evolution. But then, if you want a real example of someone who says dumb stuff to get attention, just watch the 700 club for 2 minutes.And really, I'm a proponent of the whole "we're all in the matrix" theory in Kansas. Now that the Kansas Board of Education has done what they've done, my cause can start to really get some Matrix classes in schools. Yay! Or, you know, we could start to learn about how the world was created by a flying spaghetti monster! The possibilities are endless...Wiseman45