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Author Topic:   Stanley Miller debunked?
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 31 of 34 (256436)
11-03-2005 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by happy_atheist
10-30-2005 9:46 AM


Re: 51 OR 49?
I think there IS a missing one. I have not been able to write it down determinatively as of yet. I need a little more time. I am writing a primer on Malthus first so that how I have a problem with the specific endpoints you quite clearly reflected on comes even clearer and cleaner. The process before and after homochirality could be different in different parts of the universe or slightly deviant within the solar system, I am tempted to think... This thought is somewhat like that as to if the matter in a pendulum affects its rate of swing. There was some discussion of a 5th force but that has not been supported. I do not want to be lead INTO temptation however.
It is not that I can not follow your logic but that the FUTURE possibility of an intlligent being (either alien or idolic) differentiates a different EFFECT in the process you named IN Life for me while it does not at present indicate any possible deviation in death currently in my mind. I have to check out that possibility before I can uncategorically respond. That is why I am investigating Malthus and Pearson's reference to Malthus through Darwin where Malthus talks about the size of a Cabbage head. The issue specifically could be then the relation of homochirality to protein differences across selectable changes in cabbages. I do not want to get ahead of myself, I just wanted you to know I was still thinking of your question AND answer. I have cited Gladyshev on chirality before and this would apply
http://www.endeav.org/evolut/text/ohfrmab/ohfrmab.htm
to both proteins and nucleic acids but it seems slightly possible that there is a distributive effect when one considers motion of Earth Vs motion of chemcials rotating on other planets that is NOT contained in the endpoints being two in your end. Yes they might be two "fundamentally" or "elementally" but for the biology involved it might matter INITIALLY (to be defined later) any slight difference in the PROPORTION of the left and right sided ones DEPENDENT on monohierarchy reverse information flow (given life) from one side than the other of a later fit survivability. I think I can express the retrodiction a bit better later. Thanks for the reply.
One needs to account for symmetry FACTORS in the DIFFERENCE of Earth and other Planet trajectories.
I will be working out most of the issues that are not directly chemical here
EvC Forum: "CLIMBING MOUNT IMPROBABLE" - Critique
and then I will post back here on the specific issues in chemistry(biochemistry).
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 11-06-2005 07:18 AM

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Jabez1000
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 34 (259641)
11-14-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by compmage
08-04-2005 11:34 AM


Primordial Soup
On page 193 of his book Origins: A Skeptics Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, Robert Shapiro states:
"Amino acids do not readily unite to form peptides (short protein chains) and proteins when water is present. The details of the energy budget in fact dictate that the opposite should take place. In the presence of water, peptides and proteins slowly break down into amino acids. The situation suggest its own remedy. To unite amino acids, heat them together in a dry state, so that the water released by their union is expelled.
This remedy, when tried, had been found wanting, however. "Biochemists knew that when a mixture of amino acids in the ratio found in proteins was heated, the result was pryolysis to a dark brown tar with a disagreeable odor," commented chemist William Day."
This alone blows away the idea of any primordial soup. Besides that, the nitrogen content of "PreCambrian organic matter" is less than 0.15% and amino acids contain significant quantities of nitrogen.
("Origins of Life by Jim Brooks Lion: Tring, Hertfordshire UK, p. 118)

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 34 (259646)
11-14-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jabez1000
11-14-2005 12:57 PM


Re: Primordial Soup
quote:
This alone blows away the idea of any primordial soup.
Actually, it doesn't. To wit:
Amino acids do not readily unite to form peptides (short protein chains) and proteins when water is present.
And yet, amino acids do unite to form peptides in cells, and cells are definitely a water environment. How can this occur? When you figure out that, you will be a long toward figuring out this problem. Hint: think catalysts.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 34 (259677)
11-14-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jabez1000
11-14-2005 12:57 PM


Re: Primordial Soup
Newsflash (well, old newsflash):
Almost all discussions of prebiotic chemistry assume that amino acids, nucleotides, and possibly other monomers were first formed on the Earth or brought to it in comets and meteorites, and then condensed nonenzymatically to form oligomeric products. However, attempts to demonstrate plausibly prebiotic polymerization reactions have met with limited success. We show that carbonyl sulfide (COS), a simple volcanic gas, brings about the formation of peptides from amino acids under mild conditions in aqueous solution. Depending on the reaction conditions and additives used, exposure of -amino acids to COS generates peptides in yields of up to 80% in minutes to hours at room temperature.
Leman, et al., Science, 8 October 2004:
Vol. 306. no. 5694, pp. 283 - 286
The paper is online and free if you register at Science | AAAS

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