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Author Topic:   What I have noticed about these debates...
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6552 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 61 of 238 (25581)
12-05-2002 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by nator
12-05-2002 10:52 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:

I don't believe that one can conclude from this that in the general population those who accept Creationism are in general less informed about science than those who accept evoution, because this is just one little bit of evidence. You'd need more evidence from broader sources to reach the more general conclusion.
--Percy

Hey Percy!
How is this for some evidence?
The "Yes But" problem
It pretty clearly correlates level of education with the liklihood of disbelief of evolution; the less education one has, the more likely it is that you disbelieve evolution, AND the more likely it is that you do believe that God created the Earth and everything in it 10,000 years ago.

Cool link schrafinator...I had seen some of the individual polls but not the various polls combined.
[Fixed quoting. --Admin]
[This message has been edited by Admin, 12-05-2002]

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 Message 59 by nator, posted 12-05-2002 10:52 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 12-05-2002 11:43 AM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 12-05-2002 1:24 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2246 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 238 (25584)
12-05-2002 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jcgirl92
12-01-2002 9:09 PM


None of the people on your list who are dead, which are most of them, count, because they can't have evaluated the 100 or so years of evidence-gathering that has gone on since theiy departed the scene.
Chandra Wickramasinghe is not a Creationist.
There was a court case in which he was called to sestify about evolution...
From the court proceedings transcript:
McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education
"The Court is at a loss to understand why Dr. Wickramasinghe was called in behalf of the defendants. Perhaps it was because he was generally critical of the theory of evolution and the scientific community, a tactic consistent with the strategy of the defense. Unfortunately for the defense, he demonstrated that the simplistic approach of the two model analysis of the origins of life is false. Furthermore, he corroborated the plaintiffs' witnesses by concluding that "no rational scientist" would believe the earth's geology could be explained by reference to a worldwide flood or that the earth was less than one million years old."

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nator
Member (Idle past 2246 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 238 (25589)
12-05-2002 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Mammuthus
12-05-2002 10:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:

I don't believe that one can conclude from this that in the general population those who accept Creationism are in general less informed about science than those who accept evoution, because this is just one little bit of evidence. You'd need more evidence from broader sources to reach the more general conclusion.
--Percy

Hey Percy!
How is this for some evidence?
The "Yes But" problem
It pretty clearly correlates level of education with the liklihood of disbelief of evolution; the less education one has, the more likely it is that you disbelieve evolution, AND the more likely it is that you do believe that God created the Earth and everything in it 10,000 years ago.

Cool link schrafinator...I had seen some of the individual polls but not the various polls combined.

Thanks! It's been very useful.
[Fixed quoting. --Admin]
[This message has been edited by Admin, 12-05-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22605
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 64 of 238 (25596)
12-05-2002 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Mammuthus
12-05-2002 10:59 AM


Are these the stats you were referring to? I had to poke around the site a bit before finding them at Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation:
Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic Evolution
Group of adults God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
Everyone 47% 40% 9%
Men 39% 45% 11.5%
Women 53% 36% 6.6%
College graduates 25% 54% 16.5%
No high school diploma 65% 23% 4.6%
Income over $50,000 29% 50% 17%
Income under $20,000 59% 28% 6.5%
Caucasians 46% 40% 9%
Afro-Americans 53% 41% 4%
1997-NOV data is little changed. Note the massive differences between the beliefs of the general population and of scientists:

Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic Evolution
Group of adults God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
Everyone 44% 39% 10%
Scientists 5% 40% 55%
If one assumes that increased education correlates with increased knowledge, then this information appears to indicate that the less you know the more likely you are to accept Creationism.
While I have no sources in front of me, my recollection is that similar correlations have been found between educational levels and the acceptance of other forms of pseudo-science like mind-reading, UFOs, communication with the dead, etc.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Mammuthus, posted 12-05-2002 10:59 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by wj, posted 12-05-2002 6:33 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 72 by Mammuthus, posted 12-06-2002 3:25 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 73 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-06-2002 4:14 AM Percy has replied
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 238 (25631)
12-05-2002 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
12-05-2002 1:24 PM


Another interesting trend identified in the data at that site is how the US contrasts with other countries. For example, 35% of US accept evolution compared with 66% in New Zealand, 76% in Great Britain, 65% in Italy and 61% in Philippines.
The full table is at Comparing Christian beliefs in U.S. with those of other countries
Unfortunately the figure for Australia isn't included but I suspect it would fall within the New Zealand - Great Britain range.
Doesn't it seem strange that the US shares such low acceptance of evolution with such countries as Poland and Russia?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by mark24, posted 12-05-2002 6:45 PM wj has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5272 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 66 of 238 (25633)
12-05-2002 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by wj
12-05-2002 6:33 PM


wj,
Interestingly, GB & East Germany (showing the studies age) have the highest % acceptance of evolution AND at the same time the lowest % belief in the bible. Yet the correlation to a belief in God doesn't seem to follow. It's the bible & evolution, not religion & evolution that appear to be the oil & water, a gross generalisation I confess. Check Russia & the Phillipines, for example.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3899 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 67 of 238 (25637)
12-05-2002 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Mr. Davies
12-04-2002 7:32 PM


quote:
If they are, were they on the Ark? If so then which cow had the "mad cow" disease?
No, they were in cold storage below decks.

This message is a reply to:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3899 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 68 of 238 (25638)
12-05-2002 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Mammuthus
12-05-2002 10:55 AM


quote:
Other than Behe, are there any creationist "scientists" that even have a background in sceintific fields remotely related to evolution?
Morris was a geologist, Gish was a biochemist (and an Ivy League grad if I remember correctly) and Gentry is a physicist.

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wj
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 238 (25650)
12-05-2002 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by mark24
12-05-2002 6:45 PM


Mark, I suppose it's not surprising that there seems to be a negative correlation between bible (The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word) and evolution (Human beings developed from earlier species of animals). The former view is most characteristic of yecs who are the most dramatically opposed to evolution. The figures for belief in god, afterlife etc. would likely include a significant number of theists who would not necessarily reject evolution.
Isn't it interesting that Americans aren't as god-fearing or bible-loving as Filipinos but are stronger in their rejection of evolution.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5949 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 70 of 238 (25666)
12-06-2002 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by gene90
12-05-2002 7:13 PM


Don't forget Jonathan Wells - PhD's in Biology and Theology, both from very good schools. I'm also pretty sure Michael Denton had a biology or biology-related degree (of course, that's why he's completely recanted "Theory in Crisis").

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 71 of 238 (25668)
12-06-2002 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Mammuthus
12-05-2002 10:55 AM


From "Old Earth Creationism"
http://EvC Forum: Old Earth Creationism -->EvC Forum: Old Earth Creationism :
quote:
I'm pretty sure Kurt Wise is strongly YEC based solely on faith, and he freely admits that evidence for his belief is lacking (that's why its called faith).
Kurt Wise, PhD, Paleontology, Harvard.
Studied under Stephan Jay Gould.
Apparently a creationist, and a scientist, but not a "creation scientist".
Hope I got that right.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6552 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 72 of 238 (25680)
12-06-2002 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
12-05-2002 1:24 PM


Hi Percy,
That about sums up my point. It is also similar to the data in the link schrafinator posted.
Moose, Quetzal, and wj posted 3 examples of creationist scientists but again, from the statistics, the 3 are a minority. I still think it is expected that those accepting evolution in general are better educated in or at least more active in learning about science and that it is not an artifact of forums like EvC.
cheers,
M

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 238 (25689)
12-06-2002 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
12-05-2002 1:24 PM


Percy
One thing that that hasn't been taken into account is asking people who are about to get a science degree. Could it be that people doing that already think naturalistically more then the average? Of course.
I still admitt that more education tends to increase eovluitonary thinking but but not to the extent that you think (due to my first sentence) and not for the reason you suspect. It is becasue most universities teach evoluttion only and ridicule creation of course!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 12-05-2002 1:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Mammuthus, posted 12-06-2002 4:24 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 12-06-2002 8:41 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6552 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 74 of 238 (25690)
12-06-2002 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tranquility Base
12-06-2002 4:14 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Percy
One thing that that hasn't been taken into account is asking people who are about to get a science degree. Could it be that people doing that already think naturalistically more then the average? Of course.
I still admitt that more education tends to increase eovluitonary thinking but but not to the extent that you think (due to my first sentence) and not for the reason you suspect. It is becasue most universities teach evoluttion only and ridicule creation of course!

***************+
Hi TB,
I have never taken or heard of a university course on evolution that ridicules creation...creationism is not discussed since it is not science. How often do you hear discussions on evolutionary biology in church? Note: I have not been to church in a really really long time so maybe things have changed
cheers
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-06-2002 4:14 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-06-2002 4:27 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 238 (25691)
12-06-2002 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Mammuthus
12-06-2002 4:24 AM


Direct ridiculing is pretty rare in universities I agree but I've seen it and definitely in research seminars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Mammuthus, posted 12-06-2002 4:24 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Mammuthus, posted 12-06-2002 7:09 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 81 by nator, posted 12-06-2002 11:39 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
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