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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II.
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 226 of 306 (253498)
10-20-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Christian
10-20-2005 5:16 PM


Not quite. The cave drawings were dated with 14C (1), from artifacts found in the cave that had been living plant material before being brought into the caves by the artists.
What the lake varves validate is that the 14C dates were correct ... if not a little too young for the artifacts involved.
They confirm the dates in the caves by validating the dating procedure and results with actual annual layers that date to the same age with very little error.
Note that the current limit to 14C dating is around 50,000 years ago (after which time there is too little 14C left to be statistically significant - due to the half life). This is well within that limit.
(1) usually more one method is used for control, and both have to agree for valid dates.
What the lake varves actually do is correlate the 14C with the variations in atmospheric 14N and cosmic radiation (how 14C is generated). This means fewer assumptions in the date answers.
This variation in the data also correlates with climate changes that show up in other dating methods (like the tree rings and the ice cores). You have multiple correlations independantly agreeing on the result, which makes it very robust.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Christian, posted 10-20-2005 5:16 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:23 PM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 227 of 306 (253501)
10-20-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Christian
10-20-2005 5:02 PM


Very close, note that these are not mineral fossils (organic material replaced by minerals) but the actual organics are still in situ so that the 14C is available. Sometimes the word fossil conveys an incorrect image.
Yes: one set data has age from counting annual layers of diatoms and clay, the other set data has age from 14C measurements on organic objects found buried in the layers. There is a strong correlation - it is not linear and varies a little from a straight line, but there is very little scatter (points off the curve) that would indicate a bad measuring system: the variations are due to climate and are predicted based on our knowledge of the formation of 14C.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 228 of 306 (253503)
10-20-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Christian
10-20-2005 4:57 PM


An "interglacial" is a period between glacial periods. riiiiight, eh?
wikipedia writes:
A glaciation (a created composite term meaning Glacial Period, referring to the Period or Era of, as well as the process of High Glacial Activity), often called an ice age, is a geological phenomenon in which massive ice sheets form in the Arctic and Antarctic and advance toward the equator. Conversely, the term interglacial or Interglacial Period, such as the current era, is used to denote the absence of large-scale glaciation on a global scale ” i.e., a non-Ice Age. Interglacials are, in general, shorter than glacial epochs.
christian writes:
how do you construct a 14C calibration from laminated sediments in a lake?
I think you got it on your next post. let me know if you still need more.
Interglacial - Wikipedia
also see Climatology - Wikipedia

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by roxrkool, posted 10-20-2005 8:59 PM RAZD has replied

NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
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Message 229 of 306 (253504)
10-20-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Christian
10-20-2005 5:02 PM


Measurements
I might actually understand this to some degree. Let me take a shot at it. Is it saying that they took fossil samples from the lake and did c14 tests on them and that the tests agreed with the hypothesized age of the layer they were found in, based on the annual varve thing? Am I anywhere close?
I think you have it right on actually.
Let me try to put it in yet another set of words.
1) We see anual layers being put down in the lake now
2) We can count the layers with the same kind of pattern back a few 10's of thousands of years.
3) When we C14 date fossils buried in the layers the C14 dates are older for deeper layers and younger for higher ones.
4) We know that C14 production is NOT constant from year to year so we expect the layer dates and the C14 dates to be out a bit based on the inconsistency of the C14 creation in the upper atmosphere.
5) The raw, uncorrected C14 dates are within about 7 or so % of the dates obtained by just counting layers.
6) The layers are an independent method of measureing dates from the C14 dates.
7) But the layers can be used to correct for the inconstant C14 production so that C14 dates taken without something like the layers can be used on their own to date things.
8) The dates obtained from this lake agree with dates taken from other places and by other methods.
I think that is the whole story.
What seems to be missed my many who don't like the dates obtained is that you can't make up a story as to why one dating method might be wrong without explaining why a totally different dating method gives the same results.
I have never seen any creationist site that tackles the correlation problem. If you find one I know we would be all interested in seeing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Christian, posted 10-20-2005 5:02 PM Christian has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 230 of 306 (253507)
10-20-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Christian
10-19-2005 10:50 PM


I assume it had to do with matching tree rings to Methusalah, but if you don't mind I would like more information on exactly how they do this.
Not quite, Methusalah is a special case where the rings from one tree extend back to 4,844 years before it was cut down.
Generally what the dendrochronologists do is match up tree ring data from different samples and build up a databank of rings based on climate growth patterns. This is possible because each year is different for length and warmth of the growing period and of the non-growing period. This used to be done by scientists looking through microscopes and making detailed measurements, this is now computerized.
Where this is used to date artifacts, an object from a known tree type is measured for its pattern of ring growth and this is then compared against the databank until all the rings match the pattern of the object to the databank: this gives the age of the artifact. These databanks have been built up over many years of work and in many different types of trees. They all share the same global climate pattern of long to short summers and winters. They share this pattern with the Methusalah tree and with the lake varves.
Hope that helps.
Good questions. Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 231 of 306 (253509)
10-20-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Christian
10-19-2005 10:50 PM


Sorry, first response was more general than your question.
... couldn't find any info on how they determined that the wood on the ground was that old.
The age of the trees was determined by matching the tree ring growth patterns with other samples where they knew the ages. Some of them are still standing (though dead) and not lying on the ground.
Note that they usually take 3 or 4 cores to count the rings from living trees and only in special cases cut them down to count the rings. There are other trees there that could be older than the Methusalah tree that just haven't been sampled yet.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 232 of 306 (253539)
10-20-2005 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Christian
10-20-2005 5:02 PM


You can read the original paper for free if you register at Science | AAAS - and they spam you not. The citation is H. Kitagawa and J. van der Plicht, Science, 20 February 1998; vol. 279: pp1187-1190. The search engine will take you right to it: get the pdf version to see the graphs at their best. And yeah, some of it presupposes knowledge of the jargon, but it's not terribly loaded with obscure terms.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 233 of 306 (253541)
10-20-2005 8:50 PM


There are also several data sets on tree rings from dead-but-not-completely-rotton trees found in bogs in Finland and Germany (and other places, too) that go back 11,000 years or so. The same methods that have just been mentioned for bristlecone pines were used, but on hundreds of trees - ring patterns from any one time were there in duplicates.

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by bernd, posted 10-21-2005 7:08 AM Coragyps has replied

roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 234 of 306 (253542)
10-20-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by RAZD
10-20-2005 7:03 PM


I thought I'd add that the ice is not restricted to the arctic regions. Most mountain ranges in the U.S. (above certain elevations) also have glaciers (just as they do today) that advance and retreat.
These glaciers have left stacked records of glacial and interglacial periods recorded via glacial deposits called moraines, tills, outwash, etc., and in some places, their relative timing can be correlated to similar glacial deposits on other mountain ranges.
Glacial deposits can be dated by various means, as well, which in turn are correlated to other depositional events such as varves.
Here's an interesting fact sheet from the USGS regarding varves and climate studies: Evidence of climate change over the last 10,000 years from the sediments of lakes in the Upper Mississippi Basin
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 10-20-2005 09:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2005 7:03 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 235 of 306 (253547)
10-20-2005 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by roxrkool
10-20-2005 8:59 PM


Lots of sources ....
the ice is not restricted to the arctic regions.
Some of my examples were from S.American glaciers.
Here's an interesting fact sheet from the USGS regarding varves and climate studies ...
Yes. There really is overwhelming evidence, imho, of an old earth from a number of sources that are really more accessible to the average person than the data which shows that the earth revolves around the sun.
Thanks. Read and bookmarked oh red booted wonder.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by roxrkool, posted 10-20-2005 8:59 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 236 of 306 (253552)
10-20-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by RAZD
10-20-2005 9:24 PM


Re: Lots of sources ....
razd writes:
Some of my examples were from S.American glaciers.
I know. I just elaborated a little for the people who don't like to click on links. Without clicking the link you provided, one is left thinking glacial periods are only defined by immense ice sheets expanding from the artic regions.
Yes. There really is overwhelming evidence, imho, of an old earth from a number of sources that are really more accessible to the average person than the data which shows that the earth revolves around the sun.
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
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bernd
Member (Idle past 3981 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 237 of 306 (253615)
10-21-2005 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Coragyps
10-20-2005 8:50 PM


Hello Coragyps,
as far as I know the institut for botanic at the university of Hohenheim (Germany) currently provides the most extended dendrochronology. It spans about 12.480 years; the period between present and 8480 BC is covered by 6000 oaks found in moors, the period between 7942 and 10.480 BC by pines found in gravel pits of rivers in South and East Germany. The institut plans to extend the chronology until 12365 BC, that is 14315 before present.
-Bernd


References
[1] http://www.uni-hohenheim.de/palaeobotanik/dendro/...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by bernd, 21-Oct-2005 01:18 PM
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 10-21-2005 08:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 238 of 306 (253634)
10-21-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by bernd
10-21-2005 7:08 AM


Vielen dank, Bernd!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by bernd, posted 10-21-2005 7:08 AM bernd has replied

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bernd
Member (Idle past 3981 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 239 of 306 (253956)
10-22-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Coragyps
10-21-2005 9:32 AM


Gern geschehen, Coragyps!

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 240 of 306 (254249)
10-23-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Christian
10-20-2005 5:16 PM


Just wondering how you are coming on this issue. Let me know of any more questions:
there are no stupid questions
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Christian, posted 10-20-2005 5:16 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
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