Why must we believe *before* we die?

It goes to basics.GOD would have to be stupid to expect mankind to be able to suceed in always doing right. Only a truly stupid or vindictive GOD would set a bar so high as to be unachievable.If GOD is not stupid or vindictive then the bar must be the attempt and not the achievement.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This is excellent rational thinking. I mean that sincerely Jar.Now, imagine there was a biblical case to be made for the bar being set to high for us and that the reason for doing this was that the person would arrive at the only other conclusion that it logically possible..."That bar is too high for me - I can't jump it - that means Hell for me. Oh dear"

That's why Salvation is freely given to all and all that GOD expects of mankind is that they try.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Possibility 1: "the bar MUST be an attempt" indicates own rational thinking about how God does it. There is no biblical case for this however..Possibility II And there is a biblical case to be made for this precise thingThe purpose of Law (do this, do that do the other) is not that in following it you will gain salvation. It's in not being able to follow it - and realising it - that you may gain salvation. edit: of course, not following it [b]completely[b] results in damnation.This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 10:01 AM

So, when Jesus says do this, do that and you'll be saved when directly asked how to gain salvation, is he just misleading the lawyer, or plainly lying to him ?Jesus is not speculating on theoretical possibilites, he's asked directly how to get saved. The lawyer wants to get saved, but he doesn't know how to. Jesus tells him. The lawyer walks away with the impression that if he obeys the commandments, loves God and loves his neighbour he'll be saved. If the way Jesus told him is unachievable, then Jesus just lied to the man.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Jesus was asked, Jesus told. "Do this..." If the man thinks that he is doing what Jesus told him was necessary then he is ignoring a wealth of evidence from life that points to the contrary. Only a liar would say to himself "I do what Jesus said was necessary" The best he could say is that he tries his best to do.We're looking at what the bible says. Not reading into it something that isn't mentioned. The only place where folk infer Jesus meant "try your best to do" is from their own heads. They won't find it in the bible.They will find however that adherance to law/commands cannot result in salvation. So: no mention of "trying" but lots of mention of works gaining nothing in terms of salvation.Your version or the bibles version. You pays your money...

But it is in the Bible.Love God with All YOUR heart.Please look at that statment. It says try your best. It does not set an absolute limit. It says "do your best". It does not ask folk to do more than they are capable of.Be All that YOU can be.I see two seperate things here. Salvation is a given. It's a done deal. There are NO conditions attached, not belief, not non-belief.To think that GOD sets some conditions on salvation, particularly ones that are so high that no one can ever reach them without his help is to imagine a stupid, insiped, narcissistic, vainglorious God.Why in the hell would GOD grant salvation conditioned on what He can do?The second issue is behavior. God has always expected mankind to try to do what's right. This is the message of the Bible from Genesis right on through.Finally, there is Biblical support for my position and I've provided it for you. Matthew 25 is the single clearest explanation to be found in the Bible.It is Jesus, in his own words explaning the situation. And nowhere in there will you find any reference to belief, or of God doing the things for man.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Your right. It is not specific except to say ALL heart/soul/mind. Now. Do you love God with all your heart/soul/mind? When was the last time you really pondered on what this might mean. Following his law seems like as good a place to start as any.
Have you got a spreadsheet with all the behaviour you do listed out which you know God finds objectionable. Like, grouped under the main headings of lust/deceit/covetness/anger/greed/gossip/slander etc. What strenous (with all your heart/soul/mind) efforts are you putting in place to prevent reoccurances of these things. Why are you here on this site when you could be working at that - the most important thing you could be working at. How can you say ALL when you decide instead to go for a beer with your mates? You're putting a beer ahead of God?If you say try one more time you need to show that biblically. No more assertion on this point. Try is what counts. From the bibleAs regards Matt 25. You haven't shown why this means 'cause' of salvation as opposed to 'consequence' of salvation so something else would be needed I imagine. Like, if it's this critical then I imagine the gospel would be full of it. Would it not? Where is 'trying' then?Edit: sorry for the snotty language Jar. Try and read it as a request rather than snotty. Its been a long day...This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 07:23 PM

We don't have a lot more time here but let's try to work through this.Do you believe GOD is reasonable?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No. God is absolute in everything. Someone who is absolute in everything can't be reasonable in the sense we understand it. Reasonable implies open to discussion, able to compromise, etc.

No. God is absolute in everything. Someone who is absolute in everything can't be reasonable in the sense we understand it. Reasonable implies open to discussion, able to compromise, etc.

By the way, would you agree to keep this tied to this one thread instead of bouncing back and forth between threads?Okay. I was not thinking in terms of compromise or discussion even though the Bible clearly shows that he is. Consider the negotiations on how many good men to find in the city.Let me try rewording.Do you think God is stupid?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Legend and I may be hotly disagreeing over in the other thread. But I think he makes an excellent point here.I would like to hear the response to this.

iano, I would like to discuss this further. But, unfortuantely I have prior engagements at home, work and in another couple threads here at EvC. When I have a chance I will respond to your very well thought out post here.

He is not stupid...but neither is he intelligent. These words are used to describe relative aspects of humans. A person who knows everything cannot be described in relative terms. Intelligence indicates an ability to apply, for example, rational thinking in solving a complex problem. God on the other hand doesn't have problems to apply intelligence to.For the sake of human level discussion though: God isn't stupid.