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Author Topic:   What would it take?
Brian
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 49 (25058)
11-30-2002 1:52 PM


A question I am frequently asked is; What would it take for me to accept that God is real.
However, I would like to turn this around and ask the theists:
What would it take to convince you that God does not exist?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 2:11 PM Brian has replied
 Message 34 by Brad McFall, posted 12-22-2002 12:52 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 10-07-2012 6:29 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 49 (25066)
11-30-2002 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by forgiven
11-30-2002 2:11 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
A question I am frequently asked is; What would it take for me to accept that God is real.
However, I would like to turn this around and ask the theists:
What would it take to convince you that God does not exist?

Brian.
hmmm... fair question, i think... let's see... for me, if a tornado blew through a junkyard clearing everything from it in its path yet leaving behind my car from high school, a midnight black '67 malibu ss, 396 cu in, 6 deuces, hirsch shifter, perfect condition, perfect running order... that would be pretty good evidence that design can come from chaos i think... but what are the odds? think they're even remotely close to the odds of life being on earth?

For this to convince you that there is no god you would have to assume that God didn't send this tornado to construct your old car as a gift for your faith.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 11-30-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 2:11 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 9:40 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 49 (25113)
12-01-2002 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by forgiven
11-30-2002 9:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
For this to convince you that there is no god you would have to assume that God didn't send this tornado to construct your old car as a gift for your faith.
i don't understand... you asked a question, i answered it... i didn't qualify my answer in any way, merely asked a couple questions at the end

Hi,
Since the question was about what would it take to convince a theist that there is no God, I assumed that you were saying if the tornado can leave your car in its wake then life can arise from chaos without a designer (God).
My apologies for misunderstanding your post.
Best Wishes.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 9:40 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by forgiven, posted 12-08-2002 12:14 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 49 (26162)
12-10-2002 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by forgiven
12-08-2002 12:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
hi brian, apologies for the delay but my time is far more limited now than it had been...
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Since the question was about what would it take to convince a theist that there is no God, I assumed that you were saying if the tornado can leave your car in its wake then life can arise from chaos without a designer (God).
My apologies for misunderstanding your post.
Best Wishes.
Brian.
i'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not.. i did ask whether or not you had an opinion as to the odds of a car being left, as described, if a tornado blew through a junk yard and how those odds would stack up against the odds of humans existing on earth... iow, which is more likely to occur?

There are so many factors that need to be considered here that havent been addressed, for example, you need to have the correct materials available in the junkyard to have ANY chance of your car being left in the tornado's wake. For the sake of argument we will assume that all components for your car are there. Both scenarios are likely to be in the billions to one category, there is a chance that both COULD happen, even if it is one chance in a billion billion, there is still that chance.
But regarding life on earth, the odds get reduced after each stage of evolution. So, as we know life has evolved, there is no doubt about this, and, as far as I know, no one has seen your car appear after the tornado, or the jumbo jet in the original argument, then life on earth would have the most chance of happening.
As to the question about design and disabled babies, God is meant to be perfect and his designs should also be perfect. If God creates something that has a faulty component then that negates God's omniscience.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by forgiven, posted 12-08-2002 12:14 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by forgiven, posted 12-10-2002 7:23 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 16 of 49 (26196)
12-10-2002 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by forgiven
12-10-2002 7:23 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not.. i did ask whether or not you had an opinion as to the odds of a car being left, as described, if a tornado blew through a junk yard and how those odds would stack up against the odds of humans existing on earth... iow, which is more likely to occur?
There are so many factors that need to be considered here that havent been addressed, for example, you need to have the correct materials available in the junkyard to have ANY chance of your car being left in the tornado's wake. For the sake of argument we will assume that all components for your car are there. Both scenarios are likely to be in the billions to one category, there is a chance that both COULD happen, even if it is one chance in a billion billion, there is still that chance.
But regarding life on earth, the odds get reduced after each stage of evolution. So, as we know life has evolved, there is no doubt about this, and, as far as I know, no one has seen your car appear after the tornado, or the jumbo jet in the original argument, then life on earth would have the most chance of happening.
As to the question about design and disabled babies, God is meant to be perfect and his designs should also be perfect. If God creates something that has a faulty component then that negates God's omniscience.
Brian.
brian, the odds of life appearing on earth has been calculated (sorry, i don't have the sources) to be greater than the combined total of all electrons in the universe to 1... imagine what had to occur for life to first appear here... those gas clouds had to cool to just the right temperature, gravity had to be just right, energy sources, all the crashing and spinning had to be perfect, not only in this tiny solar system but in each... and this had to occur for 15 billion years (give or take).. if you feel comfortable subtracting 3 or 4 billion so evolution can account for life after the first life, go ahead... the point stands
do you think the tornado is as unlikely to produce that car as bb is to lead to life here? for the odds to hold, there would have to be cars and jumbo jets all over the place
*brian, the odds of life appearing on earth has been calculated (sorry, i don't have the sources) to be greater than the combined total of all electrons in the universe to 1... imagine what had to occur for life to first appear here... those gas clouds had to cool to just the right temperature, gravity had to be just right, energy sources, all the crashing and spinning had to be perfect, not only in this tiny solar system but in each... and this had to occur for 15 billion years (give or take).. if you feel comfortable subtracting 3 or 4 billion so evolution can account for life after the first life, go ahead... the point stands*
Sorry, but I don’t think your point stands at all. Without sources how can you expect me to take this seriously, what factors were considered in the calculation, do we have knowledge of ALL the factors anyway?
*do you think the tornado is as unlikely to produce that car as bb is to lead to life here? for the odds to hold, there would have to be cars and jumbo jets all over the place*
Sorry, but this is a very poor analogy, one that you haven’t thought through.
The big problem with your analogy is that the components used by the tornado to make the car/jumbo jet have been made by the entities formed by the BB and evolution. Unless, of course, your tornado built mines for iron ore and coal, then built moulding shops, then picked cotton, spun the cotton for the seat fabric, shaped this to fit the seatsetc. it is really not a good analogy at all
So the odds for life on earth are far lower than that of the tornado/car/jumbo jet as, you have the odds of life appearing THEN you add to that the odds of the tornado doing it’s stuff!
Do you still believe in God?
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 12-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by forgiven, posted 12-10-2002 7:23 AM forgiven has not replied

  
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