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Author Topic:   There is no such thing as The Bible
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1366 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 301 of 305 (249345)
10-06-2005 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Steve8
10-06-2005 12:04 AM


a priori
Of course, re. origins, you assume we evolved from animals so, all creation stories are a priori false to you and your critic friends, aren't they? But that would be on the basis of an evolutionary assumption. Needless to say, I don't hold to that assumption.
you jump to lots of conclusions, don't you?
as for all creation stories being false (a priori) well... try reading several thousand, and then pick out the one that's true. it's your a priori assumption that the other ones aren't, but that the christian version of one of the jewish ones IS true. have you read the others? i doubt it.
also, my knowlegde of evolution is not an a priori assumption either. yes, i did understand evolution long before becoming a christian -- which kind of puts a damper on reading that story as literally true, i'll admit. but the problem is that this knowledge came from lots and lots of experience with the evidence. i was a geology and paleontology nut from a very young age -- so i didn't have the luxury of saying "those crazy scientists and their fairytales."

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Steve8, posted 10-06-2005 12:04 AM Steve8 has not replied

ArchaicGuy
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 305 (249566)
10-06-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by arachnophilia
10-05-2005 8:45 PM


Re: disputes over the text
Arachnophilia: Was it only Deuteronomy that was found during the eighteenth year of Josiah's reign? Deuteronomy 31:24-26 states that the Book of the Law was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant prior to Moses death. The Book of the Law is the Written Torah (not only Deuteronomy). 2Kings 14:6 King Amaziah quotes Deuteronomy 24:16 two centuries before Josiah is born. Obviously, the Ark was in Jerusalem at that time. 2Kings 22:8 Hilkiah the High Priest finds the Book of the Law inside the House of the L-RD. He takes it Shaphan the scribe who then determines it is authentic and then takes it to the King. Where did Hilkiah find the Book of the Law inside the Temple? Inside the Ark of the Covenant where the Book of the Law was kept since Moses. 2Chronicles 35:3 mentions the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark isn't mentioned again until 2Maccabees when the prophet Jeremiah ordered the Ark and the Tabernacle to be taken out of Jerusalem seven years before Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon. 2Chronicles 34 states in the eighteenth year of Josiah's reign the Book of the Law was found confirming 2Kings 22:8 record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by arachnophilia, posted 10-05-2005 8:45 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Steve8
Inactive Member


Message 303 of 305 (249623)
10-06-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by arachnophilia
10-05-2005 8:46 PM


Re: disputes over the text
No, actually, the names that appear to be postdiluvian (Cush [translated Ethiopia], Assyria, Perath [translated Euphrates], Hiddekal [translated Tigris]) were originally antediluvian names. The names were remembered by the survivors of the Flood and then given to people or places in the postdiluvian world, in memory of those earlier names of which they were somehow reminded later.
Sort of like the place names given by the early British settlers across America were often originally names of English towns (e.g. Plymouth).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by arachnophilia, posted 10-05-2005 8:46 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Steve8
Inactive Member


Message 304 of 305 (249664)
10-06-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by arachnophilia
10-06-2005 1:06 AM


Re: Genesis & Exodus
Of course, re. Babylonian stories, that still would not prove Gen. 1 & 2 are totally different stories with no relationship to one another.
Re. Elohim and Yahweh, BOTH terms are used together in chaps. 2 & 3, so, according to the Wellhausen school, one would have to suppose that some later redactor chose to glue together by dint of scissors and paste a snippet of "J", ending with "Yahweh", with a snippet of "E" or "P" that began with "Elohim". Such an artifical and bizarre process of combination extending through two entire chapters has never been discovered in the literature of any other nation or time. Like I said, Israel's neighbors all followed the same practice of having more than one name for their God. Source division on the basis of divine names does not go with the evidence of any other culture in the ancient Middle East. As per usual, the Bible is not being treated the same as other ancient literature, I wonder why there is a double standard??
Re. God and his loving ways, I'm wondering....have your parents EVER disciplined you for ANYTHING??? What kind of parent would it be that allowed their children to run roughshod all over them?? Did you ever put your hand on the element of a stove??? Would your parents be loving if they said, 'good boy, leave it there, it'll burn just nicely'??? If they saw you even getting close to that element they would more than likely pull you away before you do yourself a serious injury.
That's what God does all the time in the OT, people get themselves into trouble, and God has to act. Sometimes he tells them to leave where they are, sometimes (especially if the issues have been going on for decades or centuries) God has to remove them from the planet entirely, because the ones who are misbehaving are not the only ones he has to think of, he's got lots of other folks (present and future) to protect. You can be sure, however, if any of those misbehaving folks would have repented, God would have spared them. So he would not be being unjust or unloving in any way. Alas, some folks will not do what God tells them, no matter how many chances he gives them. That's just a fact of life in this world.
You seem to think sin does not exist...somehow, I think this world would be a far safer place if it didn't. I'm not sure where your doctrine of love comes from, but it sure isn't the Judeo-Christian one.
Re. gender, they did have queens in Egypt around that time, some of whom were quite powerful (Queen Hapshepsut was Pharoah from 1473-1458 B.C. apparently.)
Yes, I know the kind of critics I've been talking about take a late date for the Exodus. They do tend to favor just about any other nation in the area's chronology rather than the Bible's though, at least one that I know of, that they have chosen in the past, has proven to be unreliable.
As far as the reference to the slave labor of the Israelites in the city of Rameses in Exo. 1:11, it should be noted that even by the late date theory this would have to be regarded as an anachronism (i.e. a later name applied to the city than the name it bore at the time of their taskwork in it).
The reference to this work project occurs before any mention of the birth of Moses and Moses was 80 years old by the time of the Exodus event. It would have been impossible for Moses to have been born after the commencement of Rameses reign in 1300 B.C. and then be 80 years old ten years later! Consequently the city in question could not have born the name "Rameses" back in the period referred to by Ex. 1:11. Therefore, it's evidential value for the late date theory is fatally undermined.
It should also be observed however that even though a later name was inserted in place of the original name of the city that was current in Moses' time, this furnishes no more difficulty than to refer to Kiriath Arba as Hebron, even though narrating an event that took place there prior to it's change of name. Nor would a history of England be justly accused of inaccuracy if it spoke of Constantius 1 of Rome making a triumphant march into "York" back in a day it was called "Eboracum".
I think I should point out here that other than the names of God, I think every objection re. names and stuff you have given is allowed under the 'Evangelical View' in one of my recent messages. You mention redactors (which, of course, are not allowed according to that view) but other than the names of God, the changes you mention would not be the act of redactors (as in changing the fundamental meaning of the text), making up the text as they went along, but as editors (as in adding explanatory notes or terms to the body of the text for clarification), with the bulk of the text intact.
(Thank you for your clarification re. Kings).
Re. history, of course, most is recorded after the fact, I'm merely objecting to the centuries involved between events and records. No other nation is considered to have started it's history so late as modern critics insist the Israelites did...why would all other nations have histories written from early on and not the Israelites??? Again, another double standard.
These posts are getting long again!! Maybe we should stick to one post per issue lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by arachnophilia, posted 10-06-2005 1:06 AM arachnophilia has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 305 (249667)
10-06-2005 11:06 PM


Witching Hour Folk
Time to put this puppy to bed.

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