Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Bush promotes ID
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 181 of 187 (234115)
08-17-2005 1:14 PM


This thread is swirling around the bowl.

FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 182 of 187 (234142)
08-17-2005 2:26 PM


Here's a link to another great bit of science that I'm sure our President would want taught in our science classrooms...right along side ID.
Kinja
It's hilarious.

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Monk, posted 08-17-2005 3:01 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 183 of 187 (234156)
08-17-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by FliesOnly
08-17-2005 2:26 PM


Yea, that's funny. It seems that us Kansans will continue to be the butt of the joke for a long time to come. Did you catch the other spoof about Rumsfeld's visit to his wife's vagina?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by FliesOnly, posted 08-17-2005 2:26 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 184 of 187 (234365)
08-18-2005 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by paisano
08-04-2005 11:01 AM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Hi paisano,
I found some data on the demographics of postdocs and scientists in general for the US here
nationalpostdoc.org
and here
http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309096138
There has definitely been a shift to a heavy reliance on foreign talent since the early 80's.
Again, while there may be several mitigating factors including economics, I think the relevance to this thread is that by promoting ID and other such nonsense, the administration will further weaken US homegrown science and increase our reliance on foreigners...like with oil, this kind of reliance is suceptible to shocks such as other countries becoming more attractive for foreign researchers (as is happening with stem cell research already)...although one might not immediately see the impact of a decrease in science talent like one might see with spikes in oil prices, the long term consequences would be more dramatic if say China or the EU becomes the leader in science and the use of science in developing practical technology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by paisano, posted 08-04-2005 11:01 AM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by paisano, posted 08-18-2005 8:32 AM Mammuthus has replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 185 of 187 (234393)
08-18-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Mammuthus
08-18-2005 4:35 AM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Well, I think we are in agreement that promoting ID will have a negative effect on science education.
As to the numbers of American-born PhDs and potdocs, I still think a number of benign factors contribute:
-the demographic pool of Gen X that would be attaining PhDs now is smaller in absolute numbers than the boomers
-the perpetual postdoc is not an attractive career option especially when well-paying industry positions are available in many fields.
IMO, academia itself must bear much of the blame for making a scientific career extremely unattractive to a bright American, who typically will aspire to an upper middle class lifestyle and scorn careers that offer no real opportunity of such.
-the MS is sufficient for career advancement in many of those industry positions
To substantiate these points in detail would require some analysis of the NSF data. But some of your sources make some of these points as well.
Cultural trends are harder to analyze and detect. In many ways the current situation of vocal fundamentalist activism paradoxically coincident with rapid technological change is reminiscent of the 1920's. It is possible that the excesses of the fundamentalists will be their own undoing, now as then, and in time they will fade out of the cultural mainstream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Mammuthus, posted 08-18-2005 4:35 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Mammuthus, posted 08-18-2005 9:19 AM paisano has not replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 186 of 187 (234413)
08-18-2005 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by paisano
08-18-2005 8:32 AM


Re: Should ID be censored?
Hi paisano,
Thanks for the quick reply. I agree with you for the most part except that part of the shift occurred over the last 25 years i.e. from 1981 to now has seen a dramatic shift in the number of foreigners percentage wise. A career as a postdoc was not attractive in the 80's either yet more Americans chose to go into academia (proportionally) and there were less industry options available in the 80's and early 90's than currently. Also, many foreigners also seek a middle income job when they come here (though the increase in the number of Asia postdocs in many fields may in part be because of the better economics for them in the US than at home). I have certainly been living off a middle class salary ever since I finished grad school as a postdoc.
One factor that may be driving people away is the increase in the number of postdocs people usually have to through before getting a stable job and the overall length of time people have to postdoc. It used to be a couple of years and now the average is closing on a decade (in bio sciences). That drives women out in particular since they are forced to choose between having children or continuing their careers.
But I don't think this explains all of it...it has always been tough to be a scientist. It takes a ton of money to do research and used to be exclusively for the rich. Darwin and Newton where hardly poor kids who made the big time. It also takes a greater committment to long term learning than many other career choices. That was true 100 years ago and is true today.
What I would like to see is information on the science education competence of the countries of origin for the foreign postdocs and grads in relation to the US. There are the PISA studies which show our test scores in relation to europe. But they do not include the Asian countries where most of the foreign postdocs are coming from (Japan is included but not India or China). Incidentally, most european countries waste us in K-12 scores in science and math. If they could break it down grade by grade and for the US state by state or region by region...there might be a way to find see trends over time that might indicate when and where people are getting turned off to science. My guess (and it is just a guess) is that places with high concentrations of fundamentalists and other types of anti-science groups will show lousy science scores over time with the lowest proportion of students going on to get Ph.D.s much less become career scientists..but a study that could track this would be very interesting and useful. It might shed light on the motivations and education levels of those who come to the US from abroad to do science and at the same time, show (or not show) a cultural/educational trend that deters Americans from going into science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by paisano, posted 08-18-2005 8:32 AM paisano has not replied

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 187 (247710)
09-30-2005 3:08 PM


Thread copied to the Bush promotes ID thread in the In The News forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024