Can we reach the Golden Path?

I've been re-reading the Dune series (NOT those bloody awful "prequels") and I was wondering1) What is the purpose of the golden path? is the threat external or internal? a mix of the two?2) Do Paul and Leto (the 2nd) have free will or just the illusion?3) Who are the old couple in the Garden?

From various comment today - it seems some of you have read this series.Come come to my lovely thread.

I'll be goddamned if I know. I only ever read the first two. After that they're about as interesting as reading the Congressional Record.Ever read a little book called "The Dune Encyclopedia"? I thought it was a really great look at the universe of Dune, which is always what I was way more interested in than Herbert's metaphysical stuff. Very neat. Hey, someone should start a Dune wiki!

1) the purpose of Leto II's golden path was to subject humanity to millenia of suppression and totalitarianism so that they would eventually rebel and become a race less inclined to willingly give up their freedom for false security. Leto II viewed humanity as his children and that he was teaching them to be individuals and not sheep.2)Herbert implied that no one has free will. that we are all following along a predestined path. we make choices, but it is inevitable that we would make those choices. Paul and Leto II are able to see this because of their presience. It is miserable for them because nothing is a surprise. they see everything that will happen. like in dune: messiah when paul's eyes are burnt and he cannot see. he uses his presience to 'see'. he knows what is to come, so that he can act acordingly. he knows where each step will be, and what is around him. he can look directly into the eyes of someone else, even though he has none himself.3)the old couple in the garden are face dancers. they have gathered so many memories through imprinting or whatever they did (i forget) that they have an almost bene gesserit kind of memory. they have become much more powerful than the tleilaxu masters. i forget why they could see duncan and vice versa, something to do with the presience that they were beginning to be able to see. herbert, i think, liked to toy with the idea that if you build up enough memories of past lives and other peoples lives, you can develop a kind of presience just by knowing how so much has happened and then being able to anticipate much better because of that.

Scary view IMO. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Yet.. how quickly do we forget or discount history? Not the individual "we", our societies?Humanity doesn't have the type of memory that Leto II thinks it does. It makes this whole thing sound scary. I can't recall a case where long-term bad led to longer-term good. Especially when the original premise was false like this.

Hi, Roy, You mean like anticipating the kind of questions and responses creos throw at us? :-p

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You mean like anticipating the kind of questions and responses creos throw at us? :-p

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nice one

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Humanity doesn't have the type of memory that Leto II thinks it does. It makes this whole thing sound scary. I can't recall a case where long-term bad led to longer-term good. Especially when the original premise was false like this.

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humanity does have a long lasting memory, as long as society stays cohesive. science is our long term memory. and in Frank Herbert's world, there were humans that held memories that extended hundreds of millenia. the bene gesserit. the tleilaxu. the guild.yes the majority of society would quickly plunge back into ignorance, but the leaders of the universe would remember. and they would also remember that that pearl of Paul Muad'Dib's consciousness still resided in the last sand worm.

Well, modern culture has videotape that reminds us of the horrors of WWII and every war in increasing detail afterward...but society is also perhaps becoming somewhat numb to warfare if only a few of our guys die at a time. An event such as the Tsunami jolts our reality of mass death back to consciousness, but I would say that the horrors of modern mass warfare are numbed in the majority of people.

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but I would say that the horrors of modern mass warfare are numbed in the majority of people.

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No, I think that most Americans are blind to the horrors of modern warfare.Our government strongly pressures our media to not show the reality of war, and the media (mostly) obeys. Our government has also made showing the flag-draped coffins returning to the US illegal to show on TV.But mostly, we (Americans) don't want to see.