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Author Topic:   Mechanism for speleogenesis in YEC?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 1 of 13 (220910)
06-30-2005 9:02 AM


As a caver/speleologist, I am interested in the proposed/accepted mechanisms for cave generation in the YEC...
By cave, I mean solutional cave or cave system in limestone, generated by phreatic (flooded/below water table) and vadose ("river" erosion above the water table) action. Many cave systems around the world have many miles of passageway (>100 miles in some cases), and huge vertical development (>1 mile in exceptional cases). See http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/~dbart/rys/wronia_b.gif and http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/~dbart/rys/lampo.gif
For starters, in a YE scenario, how are extensive cave systems and their formations (stals, columns, etc) generated in the time frame?
More problematically, how do more complicated cave systems arise? For example, cave systems that develop below the water-table that subsequently dry as a result of lowering sea-level, allowing extensive formations to develop, then finally reflood as sea-levels rise again. See http://www.dir-mexico.com/agpic13big.htm
any offers?
This message has been edited by cavediver, 06-29-2005 10:12 AM
This message has been edited by cavediver, 06-30-2005 06:19 AM
Moved here by AdminJar

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 13 (222607)
07-08-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
06-30-2005 9:02 AM


Bump
to see if anyone can comment on this question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 3 of 13 (234728)
08-19-2005 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
06-30-2005 9:02 AM


Caves prove that a Young Earth is impossible
Personally, my experience of caves alone prevents me from considering the possibility of a Young Earth. Anyone want to convince me otherwise?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 13 (234800)
08-19-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by cavediver
08-19-2005 5:59 AM


Re: Caves prove that a Young Earth is impossible
Since we know that a young earth really is impossible and no one wants to even challenge that fact, let's talk about caves.
Some time ago I came across an article asserting that three human skeletons were recovered from one of the underwater caves that lace the Yucatan Penninsula. They dated from about 5000 years before Creation or about 11,000 BC. I haven't been able to find anymore about them. Do you know anything about such a find? IIRC, FSU was involved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 5 of 13 (234866)
08-19-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
08-19-2005 11:19 AM


Re: Caves prove that a Young Earth is impossible
I don't know off the top of my head, but I'll go looking. I was trained by an ex FSU guy... probably the best diver/cave-diver I have ever known. And the caves of the Yucatan are incredible. They are what I was talking about when I first introduced the topic long ago... they formed phreatically (below water table), but then sea level dropped and they dryed out, allowing the growth of some of the most amazing formations. Finally sea level rose and they are flooded again, giving us cave-divers some of the greatest sights on the planet!

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 6 of 13 (234928)
08-19-2005 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by cavediver
08-19-2005 2:43 PM


Re: Caves prove that a Young Earth is impossible
Hi, CD, cave systems like the Blue Holes in the Bahamas put YECs on the horns of a dilemma. Cousteau dived in one to a depth of 700 feet and found stal/stags. If they were formed (in air)pre-Flood, they should be filled with Faith`s Geo column. If they were formed post-Flood, where did the extra water come from?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 13 (234945)
08-19-2005 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
06-30-2005 9:02 AM


Playing "Devil's Advocate"
All caves made by water flow were made by the flood, and all the formations in them were made in days instead of years as the highly saturated floodwaters receded. You have no evidence otherwise (or were you there when they were made?)
Stock lines.
The real hard one to answer is why are there caves with stalactites hanging down and stalagmites rising up in underwater caves, and shy they haven't dissolved in the interim ... but I'm sure a little "applied denial" will manage to do that.
Loved the picture (as a diver and a spelunker).
Enjoy.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 8 of 13 (234980)
08-20-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
08-19-2005 8:49 PM


HiHoHiHo,a-caving we will go
All caves made by water flow were made by the flood, and all the formations in them were made in days instead of years as the highly saturated floodwaters receded
Some YEC you`d make, Razd. Apparently the highly-saturated floodwaters are highly selective, not carving caves out of limestone across the world. Maybe they were laced with Jamaica rum?
You have no evidence otherwise (or were you there when they were made?)
Got any pix of the Exodus? :-P
Edited to fix the naughty bits
This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 08-20-2005 08:06 AM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 13 (234987)
08-20-2005 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Nighttrain
08-20-2005 8:05 AM


Re: HiHoHiHo,a-caving we will go
heh. ... ["Devil's Advocate" mode]:
Apparently the highly-saturated floodwaters are highly selective, not carving caves out of limestone across the world. Maybe they were laced with Jamaica rum?
Creationist evidence is highly selective and we can ignore what we don't like because you have no direct evidence of it happening that way, and it is just based on faith in the evo model.
Got any pix of the Exodus?
No but there are pictures of chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea ... and I have discussed the validity of these pictures here:
http://EvC Forum: "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO
[/"Devil's Advocate" mode]
{{naughty bits? you mean I missed them? darn!}}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 08*20*2005 09:52 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 13 (236634)
08-24-2005 10:24 PM


"Answers" in Genesis does have a speleologist on its staff. See AiG: Creationist speleologist/karstologist: Emil Silvestru.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 11 of 13 (236673)
08-25-2005 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Harlequin
08-24-2005 10:24 PM


Thanks Harlequin, good find. I've just read through the articles they have on him... rather sparse on anything substantial.
quote:
‘Once I became a Christian,’ Emil says, ‘I knew I had to tune up my scientific knowledge with the Scriptures.’
and
quote:
I am now convinced of six-day, literal, recent, Genesis creation. That doesn’t mean that there are not still some unanswered problems, but researching such issues is what being a scientist is all about

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 12 of 13 (236674)
08-25-2005 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Harlequin
08-24-2005 10:24 PM


Interesting that in the AiG interview with Emil Silvestru, they promise to fund his "creation research". The article is from the June 1999 edition, yet I could find no mention of any relevant publications following this.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 13 (237054)
08-25-2005 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by cavediver
08-25-2005 3:44 AM


perhaps we should all apply for grants ... and (reluctantly) only find scientific results?
and from the Discovery Institute too (and get some money back from Gates?)

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