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Author | Topic: War in Iraq, is there a point? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: Please understand that those of us who oppose the current policies of the Administration are not saying we should not oppose terrorism. What we are saying is that the method being used is not effective and in fact is increasing the risk of terrorist attacks. You may or may not be right but a decision had to be made as to the best method to combat terrorism. No matter what decision was made there would be those who would support it and those who would think it wrong. However, that point is now moot as the decision has been made, and to not support that decision only strengthens the hands of the terrorists. For example I posted a link, (post #100 this thread), to a CTV story on the recruitment of a middle class male youth in Canada to Islamic terrorism. I contend that those that go out and actively oppose what is being done to fight terrorism, will make the recruitment of home grown terrorism that much easier. I believe that the bombings in London by home grown terrorists is just the start and I also believe that we will see the same thing in this country in the not too distant future. Your statement also begs the question of what would you have done. It is easy to criticize what has been done, but there has to be a constructive alternative. 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack. The bombings of the American embassies and the attack on the Cole brought the usual response of trying to catch the perpetrators without going after the organization behind it. We can even go back to Munich. If action had been taken sooner maybe 9/11 could have been prevented. You say that, "the method being used is not effective and in fact is increasing the risk of terrorist attacks". How do you know that? It is nearly 4 years since there has been an attack on American soil.
jar writes: What is the best method for preventing non-Nation States from getting the means of destruction currently availabe only to Nation States? Frankly, a nuclear weapon is not the biggest threat. If the terrorists were as smart as they seem to be, they would realize that far more damage could be done to the US with conventional methods and very small budgets than with a classic nuclear device. But we need to realize that we do have limited resources. The question is how to best use those resources to get the greatest benefit. No one is saying that terrorism should not be opposed. The debate is, or should be, on how to best use our limited resources. There is no doubt in my mind that we are at war but that it is a war unlike any other. The enemy is not identifiable, he has no borders, he is hiding in tunnels in Afghanistan and he lives across the street. The enemy does not play by any rules of traditional warfare, he believes that hatred is an attribute and he in many cases places no value on his own life other than the destruction he can cause with it. The war against terror isn't only being fought militarily. I'm certainly not always in agreement with President Bush. The debt he is running up may become a huge impediment to the long term ability of the US to fight this war. He has however, reached out to people of all faiths, including the Islamic faith, to work passively against terrorism. That is becoming more and more effective as more and more Islamic leaders denounce terrorism. I don't know how effective it has been but there has been a concerted effort to block the flow of money and other resources to the terrorists. As to what else can be done I don't think that there is much else that can be done until all countries in the west come to the conclusion that we are at war. Countries like Canada who think that we can sit back and be safe by not offending the terrorists are part of the problem. We have to start realizing that anyone who provides comfort, resources or verbal support for the terrorist cause are our enemies and should be treated as such. It has taken the London bombings to spur the Blair government to finally move in that direction. It is you that is saying we have to be wiser about using our limited resources. What would you do? Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
The insurgency is extremely unpopular! They are targeting Iraqis! In modern guerilla warfare it is often innocent civilians that suffer the most. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilians are going to support the occupying power. In fact, they may BLAME the occupying power for the insurgent attacks that kill civilians. Most of the Iraqis targeted are security forces. Many Iraqis probably blame the U.S. for that also. What I fear is that we are entering a new phase in Iraq where there will be all out civil war with the Shia and Kurds fighting the Sunnis. There have been reports in recent days of Shia, Kurd, and Sunni militias forming. Sometimes these militias overlap with the Iraqi security forces, sometimes they are independent of them. If true, it is not a good development.Short of sending in a half a million troops or so, I am not convinced there is anything the U.S. can do at this point to bring about democracy in Iraq - and I am not sure that would do it.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Ok, after a little investigation I couldn't find that poll from the Boston Globe, which leads me to believe it was either bogus, or a misquote. Can you find another poll that states the % of Iraqis that support the insurgency? It should be more like 2%.
We know there are 20,000 fighters and (huge overestimate) 400,000 supporting them. 420,000 of 25 million is 1.68%. I know 400,000 people don't support the insurgency. Remember alot (I think most) are not Iraqis and are killing Iraqis. If the boston globe poll is correct, 12 Million Iraqis support the insurgency. That simply isn't true.
Specialists say they believe Iraq's estimated 5 million Sunnis fear that the country's government, dominated by Shi'ites and Kurds, will exact revenge on them for decades of Hussein's brutal rein. There are only 17 Sunni members in the 275-person Iraqi National Assembly. Meanwhile, a recent internal poll conducted for the US-led coalition found that nearly 45 percent of the population supported the insurgent attacks, making accurate intelligence difficult to obtain. Only 15 percent of those polled said they strongly supported the US-led coalition.
Difficult to tell if they were talking about a poll on Sunnis, or who did the poll, or even showed any evidence of the poll. All I can say is this is not consistant from what I have seen, and I was there to read the polls. I can't find any other polls that verify this number, but I do find polls that contradict it.
Bloomberg The poll suggests the insurgency is unpopular, despite pockets of support in places such as Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. The survey, conducted March 15-22 in 15 cities across all regions of Iraq, has been distributed to top officials at the Pentagon, the Central Intelligence Agency and State Department.
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-23-2005 03:25 PM Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is you that is saying we have to be wiser about using our limited resources. What would you do? That is a very, very important question. Thanks for posing it. We're very close to the end of this thread so if we don't get through, perhaps we can follow up in a continuation. Historically conflicts have either been civil wars, internal to some nation-state or between nation states. Can we agree that the current wold-wide terrorist threats are a new paradigm? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: Can we agree that the current wold-wide terrorist threats are a new paradigm? Absolutely. Actually that is just a more concise way of saying what I did in my last post.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good.
Next, can we agree that the paradigm involves more than simply the US against Islam, that the tactics used can be applied to any situation between a Nation State and non-Nation State groups? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
It's apperantly a Boston Globe exclusive. Disregarding that, it is still well known that Iraq's Sunni population supports the insurgents. Here is the entire section with relevenat emphesis:
Iraqi insurgency - Wikipedia
Many Shiites and Kurds suffered heavy persecution under the rule of Saddam Hussein's regime, which may cause a reluctance to use violence against Coalition forces. This is in contrast to the more radical Moqtada al-Sadr, who draws his support from the lower classes, the uneducated, and the Shiite urban population. Both united, however, on the United Iraqi Alliance ticket that brought in the largest share of the votes in the January 2005 elections. A series of several polls have been conducted to ascertain the position of the Iraqi public further on the insurgency and the Coalition occupation. All of the polls seem to consistently find the following: * A large minority, if not a majority, of Sunni Arabs consider armed attacks on U.S. forces legitimate and justified resistance.* The greatest support for resistance is in al-Anbar province. * The majority of Iraqis disapprove of the presence of coalition forces. * A majority of both Sunnis and Shiites want an end to the occupation as soon as possible, although Sunnis are opposed to the occupation in somewhat greater margins. [16] Polls conducted in June 2005 suggest even more anti-occupation sentiment; most alarming to American policymakers is rising support for the insurgency. According to the Boston Globe (10 June 2005): "a recent internal poll conducted for the US-led coalition found that nearly 45 percent of the population supported the insurgent attacks, making accurate intelligence difficult to obtain. Only 15 percent of those polled said they strongly supported the US-led coalition."[17] Demands for U.S. withdrawal have also been signed on by one third of Iraq's Parliament.[18] The numbers in brackts are foot note links which can be viewd within the wiki. The footnotes redirect you to the relevant sources. All of them are reputable mainstream newspapers and other publications. It dosn't seem they like us very much. ABE: I read somewhere online that the 45% figure related to the Sunni and Kurds and that the article is unclear on the issue. This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-23-2005 03:39 PM
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Disagree.
It is about many countries against Islamic extremists. The tactics cannot be applied to any situation between Nation States and non-Nation State groups. The parameters are very specific.
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Tal Member (Idle past 5707 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
Right. Now go to those links.
Tired of the opposite sex? Want to turn your favorite football player into a raging homsexual? Then purchase your Gay-Gene Cattle Prod! One Zap from the GGCP will turn the Gay Gene off or on at your whim. So if you want your wife to get some hot girl on girl action, the Gay-Gene Cattle Prod is for you! *not intended for use on children*
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is the Basque movement about Islamic extremism?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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FairWitness Inactive Member |
I'll pass on that invitation, Yaro.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
What would you do? Well, for one, I think I would get out of Iraq so that we are no longer a target there and focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan which is what we should have done all along. The Taliban are coming back in Afghanistan and Osama is still on the loose in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Second, I would focus on securing our borders. That means inspecting or scanning every shipping container in every port and every car/truck coming across the border. It also means tracking every foreign national who enters the country using biometric data (electronic hand or eye print). Every foreign national should be required to report in person to an immigration official on a monthly basis or within 24 hours before expiration of their visa or face immediate deportation. Guest workers from Mexico should be legalized, issued with IDs and tracked like any other foreign national. Third, we have to beef up our domestic and foreign human intelligence to not just coordinate more but also to collect more human intelligence on terrorists.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: Next, can we agree that the paradigm involves more than simply the US against Islam, that the tactics used can be applied to any situation between a Nation State and non-Nation State groups? No problem with that. I wish I had a better understanding of the Islamic faith. I have read parts of the Koran and have read Bernard Lewis's book "The Crisis Of Islam". I think that it had the potential to become that, but it is one of the things that I believe the President has handled extremely well. He has reached out to Muslims and their leaders in a way that made it clear that the terrorists were not part of mainstream Islam.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
One is an article from an Arabic publication.
Daralhayat.com Another is the Boston Globe article. The final One is an article from the Polling Firm Zogby International:Homepage - Zogby
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So far so good.
Now can you agree that our reactions so far, things like invading Iraq and Afganistan have been patterned on the old paradigm of Nation State Conflicts? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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