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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 286 of 300 (233542)
08-15-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Faith
08-15-2005 8:23 PM


Re: fatwas against violence are good. But who are the innocents?
I believe there is little comment for two reasons:
1) Most EvC posters tend towards the leftist notion that all cultures and faiths are equal. In a sense, then, jesus, moses and mohammed are interchangebale, along with Bhudda and Hindu Gods in a broader sense. Thus, the reflexive response of many posters to the suggestion that Islam might need or consider a reformation was antagonistic. That is, their equivalence vantage point meant that one could only suggest Islam might have reason to consider a reformation out of some kind of prejudice, maybe racism, and certainly superiority. However, a few posters and myself were able to present many very creditable sources, including islamic scholars and thinkers, to validate the discussion, some agreeing a reformation is needed, others not - while not disputing that there is much for muslims to give hard thought to with respect to the practise of the faith, at least. The foregoing largely nullified the initial assumption that prejudice and racism motivated the topic and thus any further interest in posting. I suppose a discussion of equivalence could have ensued, but that was not the real topic at hand.
2) Because the issue for most was whether the topic was creditable, and not the substance of the topic, once the former was established there was no further interest. I'd imagine, though, as at most forums, there are many who never post but who find the material interesting. so i continue to post relevant and interesting material I come across.
Yes, I know at least one or two will be now be tempted to post that, in fact, the disinterest has nothing to do with my points or others, but, instead, is a consequence of nothing pertinent being said deserving of comment. Whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 08-15-2005 8:23 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by crashfrog, posted 08-16-2005 7:28 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 287 of 300 (233544)
08-15-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by mick
08-15-2005 8:44 PM


Re: fatwas against violence are good. But who are the innocents?
Faith adn thinking are hardly incompatible. In fact, much of the most brilliant thinking ever done has been with respect to religion.
as had been pointed out earlier on this thread, there is simply nothing in Christianity that would justify imperialism, terrorism, killing unbelievers and the like. Islam is different. It is a faith at war with itself. It has a spiritual, peaceful side, and a side that is a call to endless war against all non muslims until they are conquered, subjugated and, ultimately converted. It also calls for the world to be ruled under an islamic caliphate, according to islamic (Sharia) law. this conception of islam marks islamism. And the islamists are a huge, worldwide movement. They rule states (Iran, Sudan, ande formerly Afghanistan), they are powerful 5th columns waiting in the wings of power in others, and they even have strong influence in western islamic societies.
There is no equivalent in Christianity - although i surely do not deny the brutality and barbarism of the christian world before democracy (democracy having led to the faith being interpreted much more truly). Thus, the assumption of equivalence does not stand any real test of reason. That is, one faith is strictly peaceful, the other is both peaceful and warlike.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 288 of 300 (233617)
08-16-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by CanadianSteve
08-15-2005 9:03 PM


Re: fatwas against violence are good. But who are the innocents?
Most EvC posters tend towards the leftist notion that all cultures and faiths are equal.
I'm sorry? To which posters were you referring? I highly doubt this is the case.
Thus, the reflexive response of many posters to the suggestion that Islam might need or consider a reformation was antagonistic.
I'm sorry? Who was antagonistic to this idea?
You're quite confused, CS. No one was antagonistic to the idea that there's a sort of schism in Islam that needs to be addressed. What we were antagonistic to was your repeated superiority complex concerning Christianity, and your repeated assertions that radical militant Islam is best supported by the Koran.
To the extent that you are no longer advancing that point, you're no longer advancing a contentious argument. Thus, you're not getting a lot of participation because you're no longer saying things we disagree with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by CanadianSteve, posted 08-15-2005 9:03 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 289 of 300 (233639)
08-16-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by crashfrog
08-16-2005 7:28 AM


Re: fatwas against violence are good. But who are the innocents?
Crash, CS is just using this thread as his blog to repost frontpagemag articles due to some incessant need to rant about Islam. He cannot make his own blog because no one else would read it except for people who enjoy trash like frontpagemag. I am content to let him just keep posting his garbage until a moderator sees fit to close this piece of shit thread due to atrophy.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-16-2005 08:11 AM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by crashfrog, posted 08-16-2005 7:28 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by CanadianSteve, posted 08-16-2005 11:22 AM Jazzns has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 290 of 300 (233657)
08-16-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Jazzns
08-16-2005 10:09 AM


Re: fatwas against violence are good. But who are the innocents?
Almost all those article were originally published somewhere other than at Front Page, like the Washington Times and NY Post. It it their reprint of the articles that I link because they are more easily accessed there, and the links don't expire, unlike those at the original sources.
Apparently you have not noted that i have referenced articles written by respected Muslim writers and scholars. Are they guilty of an "obsesseion need to rant about Islam?" Are their articles and opinions "trash", "garbage" and pieces of "shit"?
Frankly, you need to figure out why this subject - one of raging debate in the islamic world - threatens you as it does, to the point where you refer to the work of writers like Manji, Phares, Rushdie, Taheri, Ijaz, Schwartz, et al, as "trash, garbage and shit."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 10:09 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 12:02 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 291 of 300 (233665)
08-16-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by CanadianSteve
08-16-2005 11:22 AM


Re:Regretting the life of this thread
As much as I hate posting into this thread to even give it the semblance of legitimacy, your particular response was absurd.
No where did I say that the opinions of those people were "trash, garbage, shit". Your implication therefore is indicative of your own bias and motive.
I was calling this thread and frontpagemag "trash, garbage, shit" and the lack of enthusiasm of the rest of the forum for your "blog like" treatment of the thread over the past few weeks shows a relative agreement. So stop putting words into my mouth unless you care to further damage the reputation you have so eloquently built so far on EvC. If you have a problem with my rejection of your sickeningly conservative sources then that is fine but do not dare to define my position for me.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by CanadianSteve, posted 08-16-2005 11:22 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 292 of 300 (233666)
08-16-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Jazzns
08-16-2005 12:02 PM


Re: Re:Regretting the life of this thread
All those writers have articles regularly published at front page magazine, and you referred, therefore, to them, and to this thread, which provides their articles, in those terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 12:02 PM Jazzns has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 293 of 300 (233708)
08-16-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CanadianSteve
07-26-2005 8:20 PM


well it seems that the foundations of islam were in a time when the religion's first followers had no political standing. a scorned people with a new and different religion is a sure bet for becoming a scornful people. it would seem that the revolutionary aspects would give rise to extremist sects, but then one could say the same of christianity... funny thing that. it's true as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-26-2005 8:20 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 2:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 296 by CanadianSteve, posted 08-16-2005 2:55 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 294 of 300 (233713)
08-16-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by macaroniandcheese
08-16-2005 2:29 PM


You may want to read through the uselessness that is the rest of this thread before you pick up this torch.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:48 PM Jazzns has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 295 of 300 (233718)
08-16-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Jazzns
08-16-2005 2:37 PM


of what torch are you speaking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 2:37 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 3:03 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 296 of 300 (233723)
08-16-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by macaroniandcheese
08-16-2005 2:29 PM


If you read the Koran's War verses, aka Sword Verses, and sharia law, you will see a major section of the faith which has no comparison in Christianity. If you read all the posts thus far, especially those pertaining to this topic, you will see what I believe to be strong evdience of this. You will also see that some prominent Muslim writers also recognize the problem posed by the War Verses. Not all believe a reformation is the answer, but, nonetheless, almost all believe something must be done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 3:25 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 297 of 300 (233729)
08-16-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by macaroniandcheese
08-16-2005 2:48 PM


Just wondering if you really wanted to get involved in the headache that was this thread. I am kind of on a campaign to let it die. The Admins I am sure can't be biased toward bigotry of opinion but I sure can.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:48 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 3:19 PM Jazzns has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 298 of 300 (233738)
08-16-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Jazzns
08-16-2005 3:03 PM


all the threads on this board are headaches. especially ones that are 20 pages long. 2 cents. all it's worth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Jazzns, posted 08-16-2005 3:03 PM Jazzns has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 299 of 300 (233741)
08-16-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by CanadianSteve
08-16-2005 2:55 PM


i said nothing to suggest that they are comparable religions. merely this, both are prone to sects known for birthing psychotics.
this is a generalized statement drawn from my own studies on islam both political and non. i've read Milestones (and thrown the ungodly crap across the room). i've also seen the terror that christians create everyday outside of abortion clinics (and had friends involved in such). it is not the religion that creates this, but people in circumstances and those who thirst for power. organized religion is a method for controlling people and how they think. the spanish inquisition was no more representative of the love and acceptance of which jesus spoke than this current quagmire is of the islam that my cousins follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by CanadianSteve, posted 08-16-2005 2:55 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 300 (233766)
08-16-2005 4:16 PM


Witching Hour
Allah be praised. Closing this sucker down.

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