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Author Topic:   How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 152 of 221 (229710)
08-04-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by ramoss
08-04-2005 11:15 AM


Re: OT types of Christ
James did accept his brother as being God or he was not a Christian and would not have had the position he had. Jude was also Jesus' brother. At first glance James' emphasis on good works appears to be at odds with Paul's emphasis on faith, but they simply address different theological problems. Paul never denies works, merely that works alone can save. His theology is that faith is the foundation and works must issue from faith. James is addressing the opposite problem, the misunderstanding that faith does not require works at all. Together they make the complete gospel -- salvation by faith which leads to good works or it's not true faith.

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 Message 151 by ramoss, posted 08-04-2005 11:15 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 154 of 221 (229720)
08-04-2005 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by deerbreh
08-04-2005 11:35 AM


Re: One last thought
I'm sure we're thinking of different theologians. I utterly reject everything about the Roman church, the Inquisition, the works. Those who maintained the light of true doctrine continued to defend it down through the centuries despite the Roman church. I am going to have to do a study of who was carrying the torch during the period of Roman apostacy because I tend to jump from Augustine to Luther with only a bunch of true semi-protestant evangelistic groups who lived apart from the Roman Church in between. There were also many true hearted Catholics though. What was the Reformation but Catholics who saw the light? The point is the true doctrine has never died though it has gone through many variations and differences of emphasis and if everybody thinks they can read the Bible for themselves without regard for the history of the church, there is simply no more Christian faith, it's just a bunch of fragmented disjointed contradictory beliefs.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-04-2005 11:50 AM

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 221 (229774)
08-04-2005 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ramoss
08-04-2005 12:24 PM


Re: OT types of Christ
That is yoru claim. Now, prove it.
Well, here are some sites that give the basic view that I just gave, first two about the supposed conflict between James and Paul and the second two about James believing in Jesus as the Son of God.
404 Error - Page Not Found | Desiring God
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jamesvspaul.html
http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/1999/jun/page5.shtml
http://www.1way2god.net/bio_jamesbrotherofjesus.html
Remember, most scholars think the Epsistal of James is a pseudographical work. (see Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 412-3)
Who is the author and who published it?
There is some controversy about the authorship of the Letter of James but the main opinion is that it was written by the brother of Jesus.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 159 of 221 (229775)
08-04-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by deerbreh
08-04-2005 12:36 PM


Re: One last thought
I'm on the side of Luther, the Waldensians and the Anabaptists and don't mean that we aren't to read the Bible on our own, of course we are, but not without help from God-appointed leaders in the church.
The fact that there have always been controversies in the church doesn't keep God from preserving His word to us. He is quite capable of making sure we get the truth through His Holy Spirit. No need to rely on our own flimsy selves to figure it all out.
What do you think was "written over a long period of time?"

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 221 (229777)
08-04-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ramoss
08-04-2005 12:26 PM


Re: One last thought
Luthor?? Luthor?? This is the guy who wrote 'Jews and their lies', right.
I just want to knwo where you are coming from.
Luther is known for starting the Reformation, not for the Lies of the Jews, which most repudiate. He is known for such works as his Commentary on Romans and Commentary on Galatians and The Babylonian Captivity of the Church among other things. TheLies of the Jewswas repudiated by his own colleagues at the time and not taken seriously by the churches at all.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-04-2005 02:24 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 163 of 221 (229870)
08-04-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by ramoss
08-04-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Luther
Perhaps a nitpicking point in a way, but Luther wouldn't have been in the position to CHANGE "some translations." He did DO a translation of his own into German, so do you mean he added the word "alone" in that translation? That's acceptable for a translator, whose job is to bring out the meaning of the text as he understands it. A perfectly literal translation from any language to any other language isn't really possible -- there's always an element of interpretation involved.
But I'm just guessing you are referring to his German translation as I haven't heard anything else about this incident. That "alone" has become a slogan in Reformed churches now, however, thanks to Luther and the other Reformers: "faith alone, Christ alone, scripture alone, grace alone, to God alone be the glory."
May I ask: do you practice Judaism, and which kind if so?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 221 (230530)
08-06-2005 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
08-06-2005 3:01 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
According to the Bible God can and does make mistakes. The Flood was one.
Nowhere do I see anything in the Bible to indicate that God considers the Flood a mistake.
If I did I doubt I'd be a believer. I can't imagine worshiping (treating as all-worthy) a fallible God.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 221 (230592)
08-06-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
08-06-2005 6:10 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
I assume you mean Genesis 8:21,
...and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
which I read as simply God's assurance that He won't do it again, which we are to trust as a promise He'll keep. No overtones whatever that He considered the Flood a mistake.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 177 of 221 (230603)
08-06-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
08-06-2005 9:41 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
Yup, begins there and continues on into 9. If you don't see the tone of regret and mistake then fine. But reading it literally would carry yet another example of GOD once again simply not being too smart, to having once again failed to realize what he was doing.
Now you're confusing me. That is YOUR idea, not mine. I simply read it as written, as a promise not to repeat the Flood, for our sake. You are the one who is calling God a dolt, who doesn't know what he's doing and changes his mind. And again, how there's anything in such a god to inspire worship is beyond me.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 221 (230606)
08-06-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
08-06-2005 9:49 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
No, it's not me, it's the Bible that builds that portrait. And I agree to a great extent with you, the God of the Bible, if it's read literally, does not inspire worship.
Aaargh. YOU are the one who thinks the passage says that God is saying he made a mistake which is what makes him doltish. *I* did not say that, YOU did. Everything you attributed to a literal reading is like what YOU said.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 221 (230642)
08-07-2005 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Rahvin
08-07-2005 12:11 AM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
God does have sorrow about having to destroy sinners, He'd rather not, and that is in the passage, but the implication that He regrets doing what He did is something else, which is what jar was saying and what you insultingly say with the phrase "fit of rage." God promises not to destroy this rotten sinful human race again although we certainly deserve it, and long before the Last Judgment too. But He's promised and the earth will make it on through to then, accumulating sin just as the pre-Flood people did.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 188 of 221 (230993)
08-08-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 12:11 PM


Knowedge of good and evil
iano has answered that he believes any actions performed by God are justified, because by his definition God can do no evil and therefore all of Gods acts are "good" automatically regardless of human opinion.
I would answer this assertion by saying that human morality IS God's morality, if a literal interpretation of the Bible is used.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Human morality is fallen, confused and distorted ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and now more often continues to lead us to disobedience of God than to doing what is right in His eyes. In fact, in God's eyes it is likely that we NEVER do right: Scripture says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and "there is no one good, no not one," and "all we as sheep have gone astray" and "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," as we don't do even our good works from right motives, being blinded by the Fall.
Remember why Adam was sent out of the Garden of Eden? He ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and became "like God" in being able to understand right and wrong.
The serpent lied. They didn't become like God or "as gods" either one (unless they became like the "gods" who are the fallen angels), they simply disobeyed God and suffered the consequences God had warned them they would. The serpent lied most horribly in saying "You will not surely die," which calls God a liar. What God told them was the truth, that they would die.
Yes, they now understood good and evil through the act of committing evil and disobeying God. Their first knowledge of evil was the disobedience itself and its consequences. Here are some commentaries on it:
From the usual commentaries at Blue Letter Bible.org:
JF&B ... tree of the knowledge of good and evil--so called because it was a test of obedience by which our first parents were to be tried, whether they would be good or bad, obey God or break His commands.
Matthew Henry:
There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so called, not because it had any virtue in it to beget or increase useful knowledge (surely then it would not have been forbidden), but, First, Because there was an express positive revelation of the will of God concerning this tree, so that by it he might know moral good and evil. What is good? It is good not to eat of this tree. What is evil? It is evil to eat of this tree. The distinction between all other moral good and evil was written in the heart of man by nature; but this, which resulted from a positive law, was written upon this tree. Secondly, Because, in the event, it proved to give Adam an experimental knowledge of good by the loss of it and of evil by the sense of it. As the covenant of grace has in it, not only Believe and be saved, but also, Believe not and be damned (Mk. 16:16), so the covenant of innocency had in it, not only "Do this and live,’’ which was sealed and confirmed by the tree of life, but, "Fail and die,’’ which Adam was assured of by this other tree: "Touch it at your peril;’’ so that, in these two trees, God set before him good and evil, the blessing and the curse, Deu. 30:19. These two trees were as two sacraments.
David Guzik:
ii. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the "temptation" tree; eating the fruit of this tree would give Adam an experiential knowledge of good and evil. Or, it may very well be that it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not so that man would know good and evil, but so that God could test good and evil in man
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-08-2005 12:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 221 (230998)
08-08-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 12:11 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
It seems the serpent tempted with the truth - their eyes were opened, and they understood good and evil as God does. This seems to say that man can deem an act to be good or evil just as God can. If man sees that an act is evil, and man has the same moral compass as God, then how could an evil act like genocide be justified if God does it?
Why is it you believe the serpent who called God a liar? Adam and Eve only brought death into the human race with their eating of the tree God had forbidden, and the propensity to further disobedience of God. The rest of scripture makes it plain that human morality is a poor distorted thing to put it mildly.
The term "genocide" begs the question. The term itself describes a species of homicide, or murder, the UNLAWFUL killing of innocents, which God has forbidden, as opposed to LAWFUL execution of the guilty. On the human level, the death penalty properly enacted under law is justice, for instance, but all God's acts are justice. Our not understanding it as scripture presents it is merely evidence of our corrupted moral sense because of the Fall.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-08-2005 01:08 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 191 of 221 (231011)
08-08-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 1:09 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
Their eyes were opened, and they suddenly knew good from evil. They knew that they were naked. Are you saying that they somehow realized they were naked because they disobeyed God? The text seems to say that it was the fruit itself that gave them the knowledge.
Yes, but what sort of "knowledge?" The knowledge of sin, their own sin, and their guilt before God. Whereas before they had lived in harmony and innocence, now they live in shame, seeing their own guilt exposed. "Covering" is an interesting word study in the Bible. It's all about sin and shame and guilt, and how we need God's own covering of our sin for protection from His wrath. That is why He made Adam and Eve clothing of animal skins for starters, showing His good will to them in a token of the sacrifice of His Son He would ultimately send to save them from their sin.
Here's Matthew Henry on the subject:
The strong convictions they fell under, in their own bosoms: The eyes of them both were opened. It is not meant of the eyes of the body; these were open before, as appears by this, that the sin came in at them. Jonathan’s eyes were enlightened by eating forbidden fruit (1 Sa. 14:27), that is, he was refreshed and revived by it; but theirs were not so. Nor is it meant of any advances made hereby in true knowledge; but the eyes of their consciences were opened, their hearts smote them for what they had done. Now, when it was too late, they saw the folly of eating forbidden fruit. They saw the happiness they had fallen from, and the misery they had fallen into. They saw a loving God provoked, his grace and favour forfeited, his likeness and image lost, dominion over the creatures gone. They saw their natures corrupted and depraved, and felt a disorder in their own spirits of which they had never before been conscious. They saw a law in their members warring against the law of their minds, and captivating them both to sin and wrath. They saw, as Balaam, when his eyes were opened (Num. 22:31), the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand; and perhaps they saw the serpent that had abused them insulting over them. The text tells us that they saw that they were naked, that is, [1.] That they were stripped, deprived of all the honours and joys of their paradise-state, and exposed to all the miseries that might justly be expected from an angry God. They were disarmed; their defence had departed from them. [2.] That they were shamed, for ever shamed, before God and angels. They saw themselves disrobed of all their ornaments and ensigns of honour, degraded from their dignity and disgraced in the highest degree, laid open to the contempt and reproach of heaven, and earth, and their own consciences.
Now see here, First, What a dishonour and disquietment sin is; it makes mischief wherever it is admitted, sets men against themselves disturbs their peace, and destroys all their comforts. Sooner or later, it will have shame, either the shame of true repentance, which ends in glory, or that shame and everlasting contempt to which the wicked shall rise at the great day. Sin is a reproach to any people. Secondly, What a deceiver Satan is. He told our first parents, when he tempted them, that their eyes should be opened; and so they were, but not as they understood it; they were opened to their shame and grief, not to their honour nor advantage. Therefore, when he speaks fair, believe him not. The most malicious mischievous liars often excuse themselves with this, that they only equivocate; but God will not so excuse them.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 221 (231032)
08-08-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 1:37 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
Actually, it wasn't the serpent that said they had become like God, but God Herself.
Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ah, if only I had read just a bit further. That's a MUCH better quote, jar, thanks.
So either man has the same moral compass as God, or God lied. Which is it, Faith?
It was the serpent, not God, who said before they ate of the tree that they would become like God or gods. After the fact they are confused and ashamed and hiding -- some gods! Some commentators believe that God is being sarcastic here. In any case clearly Adam and Eve were humiliated and terrified after their act of disobedience, so their new knowledge was not the great boon you are trying to make it out to be. Here's one commentary:
a. Understanding the idea behind Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil is tough. Perhaps there is a note of sarcasm in God here (as Elijah used in 1 Kings 18:27) regarding Satan's empty promise to become like gods; or, perhaps the idea focuses on man's greater knowledge (though in a bad sense) now that he has the experiential knowledge of evil
b. In mercy, God was protecting Adam and Eve from the horrible fate of having to live forever as sinners by prohibiting them from eating from the tree of life

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