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Author Topic:   WIll God save us if we don't believe in the Resurrection?
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 121 of 139 (227130)
07-28-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
06-26-2005 8:39 PM


Re: Necessity of the Resurrection...
I agree with Brian - if Jesus really was the son of/or God then it seems like a circle act to me.
http://EvC Forum: What's so great about the death of Jesus? -->EvC Forum: What's so great about the death of Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-26-2005 8:39 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-03-2005 11:26 AM CK has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 122 of 139 (227139)
07-28-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by riVeRraT
07-28-2005 2:46 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Thats your opinion.
Yes, my personal opinion on it is based on the knowledge I have gathered thus far in life.
The truth is that you have no authority to speak for all the cultures of the world, and how they came to be.
What authority? It is what it is. Native Americans, for example, developed a culture apart from the organized Christianity going on across the pond and had no access to it until the cultures collided, where is the conundrum?
Are you suggesting that they sort of knew that Jesus had died for them on the cross?
What about religion prior to the mostly monotheism we see today? Shouldn't the ancient empires have felt in their hearts that God was speaking to them?
Nor do you know what is on peoples hearts. That leaves us with the fact that anything is possible.
Blood. It's true we don't know what people are thinking but if they're telling us "We believe in all of the following Gods..." or "We believe the Universe was created like this..." should we not believe them? Should we just assume, for some insane reason, that they're lying and really they had the Christian God in their hearts the whole time?
Even as little as 2000 years ago a small group of apostles went around a very large area, and spread the gospel.
So you admit that Christianity isn't felt, it's sold. Therefore, a culture that evolved in a geographically separated situation would have no understanding of Christianity until someone from that culture met.
My point is, that we do not actually know who knows, and who doesn't.
We know who doesn't. There aren't very many cultures on Earth now that have not at least heard of Christianity, just as we are here discussing it. Those that don't believe in it still after knowing of it, I think you could safely say have chosen not to follow the religion.
As far as people who call themselves Christians but don't actually believe, who knows.
That is the problem I have with this whole thread, we are judging whether or not people are going to heaven. Yea the bible says you have to believe, but it also says do not judge. So what do we do?
We are simply trying to determine if
A) One can spontaneously (seemingly) realize Christianity without outside influence from cultures other than their own.
and if so
B) If a culture who hasn't had contact with other cultures, such as a tribe in Africa, does not convert to Christianity, are they going to Hell or in line to receive some kind of punishment.
Just love God, and love others, let God sort it out.
Agreed, start getting on the phone with congress and tell them as a Christian you want them to stop trying to legislate morality based on religion and to just let God sort it out.
This message has been edited by dsv, Thursday, July 28, 2005 03:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 2:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 10:47 PM dsv has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 123 of 139 (227209)
07-28-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by dsv
07-28-2005 3:16 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Native Americans, for example, developed a culture apart from the organized Christianity going on across the pond and had no access to it until the cultures collided, where is the conundrum?
Exactly. But go back further. Christianity starts with Judism. Who knows exactly how the Native Indians came to America. It is possible they left the east and sought out new land to get away from religious beliefs. We just don't know what was on their minds and hearts.
But the part about God writing his laws on our minds and hearts, came after Jesus died. So that when you learn the real truth, you will know in your heart if it is true or not. That is the problem today, that religion, and man is so screwd up, we do not get the truth taught to us the right way. We are decieved, and we know it. That is why we run from organized religion, and the such. But when you learn the truth, it will knock you over, and you will know. At lest that is how it happened for me, and many other people I know.
Blood. It's true we don't know what people are thinking but if they're telling us "We believe in all of the following Gods..." or "We believe the Universe was created like this..." should we not believe them? Should we just assume, for some insane reason, that they're lying and really they had the Christian God in their hearts the whole time?
I find nothing wrong about that idea. Man makes up stuff all the time to convienence himself, and his selfish ways. Just look at what the Jewish leaders did to the king of jews, to save thier own authority. Look at all the false Gods of the bible, do some study on them, and you will see how they are created by man, for mans purposes, not God's. Other religions take part of the truth and build off that, but still miss the point, or decieve you from the absolute truth. Again this is my opinion, and what I see in my life.
So you admit that Christianity isn't felt, it's sold. Therefore, a culture that evolved in a geographically separated situation would have no understanding of Christianity until someone from that culture met.
No, it is so that when you hear the truth you will know it from your heart and mind. This is why I do not have a solid answer to the OP. My thoughts even seem to go against people in my own church. I tend to agree with jar a little, saying that you just might not have to know Jesus to get into heaven. But for everyone here in this forum, they have a pretty good understanding who Jesus is, but choose not to believe. Even still, who am I to judge if they go to heaven or not?
Lets look at the facts of the bible.
fact #1 Jesus died for us.
#2 he told us to go and spread the gospel
#3 he said that he would not return until his word was spread to the ends of the earth. (to me that means that not everyone knows)
So then why would we have to go tell people, if they already know? What happens to those people? Too bad on them because they did not have a chance to know Jesus?
Even people who are taught of Jesus here in the US, are they taught correctly about the word of GOd, and the power of the Holy Spirit, and the love of God sending is son to die for us. We hear it all the time, but do we really understand it? If so, then how could we really know Jesus?
Maybe God is going to punish those who know Jesus, and do not show others, then let the others go to heaven, and say it is not thier fault they didn't know Jesus, but your or mine, because we didn't act the part and let our actions speak louder than televangilist.
I consider myself a follower of Jesus, and that I am doing things his way to the best of my ability, but to the jury os still out on who gets to go to heaven. It's not for me to decide, or anyone else in this forum, that's how I feel.
We know who doesn't. There aren't very many cultures on Earth now that have not at least heard of Christianity, just as we are here discussing it. Those that don't believe in it still after knowing of it, I think you could safely say have chosen not to follow the religion.
Do you know who Jesus is? Have you ever felt the power of the Holy Spirit? How can you judge millions of peoples hearts like that. You have no way of knowing what they have been through, or how the sum of thier experiences have made them who they are.
We are simply trying to determine if
A) One can spontaneously (seemingly) realize Christianity without outside influence from cultures other than their own.
and if so
B) If a culture who hasn't had contact with other cultures, such as a tribe in Africa, does not convert to Christianity, are they going to Hell or in line to receive some kind of punishment.
A. I don't know
B. I don't know.
Not much help, am I?
I guess I am still trying to figure it out myself. My reasoning is biblical. I don't know if I will ever know the answer to that questions, but as a Christian, who has experienced the power of the Holy Spirit, I think my job is to just love people, take care of orphans and widows, and do everything for the glory of God, and not my own selfish desires. Of course I fall short, but thats ok, so I am told. I mean I feel ok, I feel like I will go to heaven. I might not sit on the highest thrown, but hey, I'll be glad to be there.
Agreed, start getting on the phone with congress and tell them as a Christian you want them to stop trying to legislate morality based on religion and to just let God sort it out.
That is not why there is a separation of church and state. But lets nbot get off topic here.
But a question, where do you think we should get our morals from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by dsv, posted 07-28-2005 3:16 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by dsv, posted 07-29-2005 10:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 124 of 139 (227303)
07-29-2005 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by riVeRraT
07-28-2005 10:47 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Exactly. But go back further. Christianity starts with Judism. Who knows exactly how the Native Indians came to America. It is possible they left the east and sought out new land to get away from religious beliefs. We just don't know what was on their minds and hearts.
We're talking about 30,000 years ago. That's a little too old for Judaism's 4,000 year history.
So that when you learn the real truth, you will know in your heart if it is true or not.
This hypothesis is apparently incorrect since there's plenty of scholars who study the bible extensively and remain atheist. Perhaps even directly because they study the bible extensively.
I find nothing wrong about that idea. Man makes up stuff all the time to convienence himself, and his selfish ways.
Agreed. However, I don't understand your position then. Are you an atheist/agnostic or a Christian?
No, it is so that when you hear the truth you will know it from your heart and mind.
Does this mean I have not heard the truth yet? What have you heard that I and others have not?
What about all those (the majority of American atheists/agnostics) that have left organized religion? Wouldn't we assume that they have heard the "truth" from their ministries? If even they can't, what hope is there that anyone can really hear the "truth?"
Even still, who am I to judge if they go to heaven or not?
I agree. Who are you to judge what is wrong or right, gay or straight, an abomination or not, moral or immoral, etc. Judgement is a huge part of organized Christianity. That's what's all about, who is right and who is wrong.
Maybe God is going to punish those who know Jesus, and do not show others, then let the others go to heaven, and say it is not thier fault they didn't know Jesus, but your or mine, because we didn't act the part and let our actions speak louder than televangilist.
I consider myself a follower of Jesus, and that I am doing things his way to the best of my ability, but to the jury os still out on who gets to go to heaven. It's not for me to decide, or anyone else in this forum, that's how I feel.
Yikes. For the sake of all the good kind-hearted people out there -- who, according to your bible, sin on a regular basis -- I hope that your god is not God. He sounds like a pretty cruel entity.
Do you know who Jesus is? Have you ever felt the power of the Holy Spirit? How can you judge millions of peoples hearts like that. You have no way of knowing what they have been through, or how the sum of thier experiences have made them who they are.
I know who "Jesus" is the same way we all do, literature. No, can't say I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit, I'm awaitin' though.
I didn't judge anyone. I simply said that historical evidence shows us that the societies of the time, who were not monotheistic, had no idea who or what Jesus or your God is.
I'm not judging them in any way. See, I don't care if they believe in your God or not, I don't see it as a bad thing, so I'm not saying it in a derogatory way at all.
Of course I fall short, but thats ok, so I am told. I mean I feel ok, I feel like I will go to heaven. I might not sit on the highest thrown, but hey, I'll be glad to be there.
That is f-ing scary. Who would want to live like that? I do not understand it.
If there is a heaven, I hope you get in, honestly. I hope everyone does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 10:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 07-29-2005 12:21 PM dsv has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 125 of 139 (227356)
07-29-2005 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by dsv
07-29-2005 10:45 AM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
That's a little too old for Judaism's 4,000 year history.
But not too old for God.
This hypothesis is apparently incorrect since there's plenty of scholars who study the bible extensively and remain atheist. Perhaps even directly because they study the bible extensively.
Which means.......absolutely nothing.
There are many who do find the truth.
It's like the placebo effect. Does it make all medicine not work? lol
When you learn the truth, its in God's time, not yours. We are all covered in lies, and it takes time to dig yourself out. We have to go through our life experiences, and trials sometimes, before we can be ready for it. People also say one thing one the outside, and another on the inside.
For some people, that’s what they probably mean by faith.
I was saying for many years that I believe by faith, but I had no real sign to prove it to myself. I wasn't really even looking for proof. I was not prepared for what happened to me, or maybe I was. Still the proof is subjective, and exclusive to myself, like a placebo.
Agreed. However, I don't understand your position then. Are you an atheist/agnostic or a Christian?
I am glad that I come across to you this way. All of us in our church are sick of "Christianized" sayings and such. I am Christian, all the way. We just try to stay away from tradition, but its hard, because staying away from tradition is a tradition in itself. There has to be a better way to show people the love of God, and Christ. That's our purpose in life, using our gifts that God gave us to share the love he has for us. Most churches want to supress that. Most religions supress that, because then they loose thoer control over you, and relieguish it to God, who should have it in the first place. If we were really following him, there would be no wars, and no problems, no starving children, or suffering widows, no mass murders, etc.
But we as humans just won't let that happen. I guess we are victims of our own free will. How can we know the light unless we know the dark as well?
Does this mean I have not heard the truth yet? What have you heard that I and others have not?
Long pause.....I don't know. I wish I could share with you what I feel. It is to tough to put into words, and even though I had it explained to me, I did not get it, until it happened to me.
What about all those (the majority of American atheists/agnostics) that have left organized religion? Wouldn't we assume that they have heard the "truth" from their ministries? If even they can't, what hope is there that anyone can really hear the "truth?"
The truth according to the bible, is the Holy Spirit. Now we all know that Catholics sit in church on Sunday and say, "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" But I have been conducting my own personal survey among Catholics, and I ask them: "Who and what is the Holy Spirit" and they cannot answer me. It's sad, and I will have to say that, no, people are not hearing the truth in organized religions for the most part, and they are realizing this, and leaving the thought of God behind, because it just doesn't make any sense. I went through it myself.
Even hearing the truth is no lock that you will recognize it, since we are so buried in lies, money, and technology. What do we need God for?
I see our hearts as Bugs Bunny when all the dogs piled on him: "dog pile on the rabbit, dog pile on the rabbit" We have to dig ourselves out.
But would you agree on this truth, that we all seek the truth?
I agree. Who are you to judge what is wrong or right, gay or straight, an abomination or not, moral or immoral, etc. Judgement is a huge part of organized Christianity. That's what's all about, who is right and who is wrong.
We don't have to judge what is wrong or right in God's eyes. Jesus came down and explained it. Once I shed all the things I was doing wrong, I was able to hear from God. We can look at a murderer and with a qualified answer say he is wrong for doing that. We can punish him here on earth, if our society chooses to do so. We can look at a gay and say, that is wrong in the eyes of the Lord, if our society chooses to accept it, then we must accept also.
We just cannot condemn it, or convict that person of it. Who did Jesus hang out with when he came down? The sinners, thats who. He loves everyone regardless, as should we. But do we condom sin? Jesus told us not to. We are all sinners, so we are all on the same level, in my eyes. But I do not expect anyone to condom my sin, when I do wrong, it is between me and God, and I do not make a public display of it. If my sin is punishable by the world, then too bad for me.
(Hears the can of worms opening up)
I guess that is why I remain on the fence about many moral issues. I think Jesus said it the best in the parable of the weeds:
quote:
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
I agree. Who are you to judge what is wrong or right, gay or straight, an abomination or not, moral or immoral, etc. Judgment is a huge part of organized Christianity. That's what's all about, who is right and who is wrong.
Well, I can judge all I want. I just have to be expected to be judged in the same way. People pray to God for justice, but that is a dangerous prayer, for it can bring justice on yourself as well.
Again, we do not have to judge certain things, Jesus explained to us what is right and wrong. We just cannot condemn.
Please don't turn this into the gay thread...
It always comes down to this, freakin sad.
We as a society make up the rules of this earth. Yes we will be judged for it. If I am against gay marriage, and I am wrong, well then I will pay for it later. Who knows what it will be like 2000 years from now? Everything that is right will be wrong, and vice versa.
One gigantic magnetic pulse from the sun, and everything would change, and there would be no laws, except those created by the strongest.
I think the mistake is that gay people want to get mad at God, because humans decide not to accept gays. Well I think they are short changing themselves. Gays put down straight marriage all the time, saying how bad it is, and look at the divorce rate, blah blah. Of course its bad, look at the world today. To me its much harder for a guy and a girl to get along, than 2 guys. Should I be mad at gays, because they mock straight marriages?
Yikes. For the sake of all the good kind-hearted people out there -- who, according to your bible, sin on a regular basis -- I hope that your god is not God. He sounds like a pretty cruel entity.
Well, the bible is pretty clear on that one, your works will not get you into heaven. Again you are explaining everyone’s heart out there, except yourself. Why would you even remark on my opinion about it anyway, its just my opinion. My opinion won't get you into heaven.
I know who "Jesus" is the same way we all do, literature. No, can't say I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit, I'm awaitin' though.
Cool, I pray right now that God blesses you with it also.
I'm not judging them in any way. See, I don't care if they believe in your God or not, I don't see it as a bad thing, so I'm not saying it in a derogatory way at all.
I agree with you. I am saying that I do not understand the purpose of all other religions and cultures, but I know that nothing happens except by the will of the father. The only thing I wish to share with other cultures is love.
That is f-ing scary. Who would want to live like that? I do not understand it.
Whats so scary about it? The standards are set, and I fall short of them. I do not really feel bad about it or anything, I do the best I can. I am saved by Jesus, since God loves me. I can see the light, because I can also see the dark.
Tell me you have never done anything in your life that you feel bad about?
If there is a heaven, I hope you get in, honestly. I hope everyone does.
Yea, I hope we all do. Thats the primary motivation behind all the Christianized stuff. If we can't get people into heaven by following 2 rules, loving God, and loving others, then we ain't doing it right.
But hope isn't going to get anyone in. Wouldn't you think that? If you were running heaven, how would you have it run?
This is what I mean by judging peoples hearts. I think a lot of people on the outside say, I do not believe in God, or if God exists, let him show himself, blah blah. But on the inside, they are saying exactly what your saying. They talk to God in their hearts, and say...God, if your there, you can understand why I don't believe in you, or why I say I don't believe in you, and why I haven't found you. So I am going to be good, and hope that you let me in. In the mean time, I am going to be serving myself, and once and a while, I will help others.
Either that, or some combimnation of those thoughts. I know, I was there myself.
Do you think its unreasonable for God to expect us to love him, and love others? Do you not think that all bad in this world is the responsibility of man, not God, even though he created it all?
We are a human RACE, we suffer as a race. Until we learn how to be one with each other and God, it will never be right. To me its unexplainable.
Sorry for the long winded post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by dsv, posted 07-29-2005 10:45 AM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by dsv, posted 07-29-2005 3:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 126 of 139 (227461)
07-29-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by riVeRraT
07-29-2005 12:21 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Since this is the Faith and Belief forum, I'll go along with a lot of this stuff for the sake of discussion, even though most of it has no basis in reality. Unfortunately most of your post is just opinion so there's not much room for response other than my opinion.
If we were really following him, there would be no wars, and no problems, no starving children, or suffering widows, no mass murders, etc.
Why don't we all follow Allah or cows or chickens? If the human race was collectively 100% fearful of any doctrine, there would be less conflict, simply because there wouldn't be much to fight about.
If everyone on the planet was atheist and woke up one morning and said to themselves "hey, we're all human, screw all this sinner and hell nonsense, I'm going to do my part to better the human race" then that would have the same outcome.
We don't need Christianity to save us.
But would you agree on this truth, that we all seek the truth?
No. Some people are blissfully ignorant and choose to take the easiest route. I don't know many people that have explored many other religions and science before choosing Christianity, do you?
Most people are just brought up in one religion and stick with it or they find something that suits them socially and go with that for reasons apart from truth or enlightenment.
Please don't turn this into the gay thread...
It always comes down to this, freakin sad.
The "gay or straight" was just one line item, sorry. It's just one of the easiest ways to show how ludicrous and hypocritical the religion is, so it seems to come up often on these forums.
I think the mistake is that gay people want to get mad at God, because humans decide not to accept gays. Well I think they are short changing themselves. Gays put down straight marriage all the time, saying how bad it is, and look at the divorce rate, blah blah. Of course its bad, look at the world today. To me its much harder for a guy and a girl to get along, than 2 guys. Should I be mad at gays, because they mock straight marriages?
I think you're missing the point. They're not putting down straight marriage. They're pointing out the hypocrisy of divorced Christians telling them they're not suitable for marriage or raising children. Happily married Christian families with white picket fences in rural areas produce gay children too, that's what they're saying.
I digress, this is off-topic.
Cool, I pray right now that God blesses you with it also.
I didn't feel anything. Try again, this time harder and longer.
I agree with you. I am saying that I do not understand the purpose of all other religions and cultures, but I know that nothing happens except by the will of the father.
Well why would you? I mean, Christianity is the only one that's right -- you have confirmed it, you've felt the Holy Spirit -- why would we need all those other freakin religions? They're just fodder.
Whats so scary about it?
Hell is scary. A God that damns people to Hell for living on a planet he created like a kid with an ant farm is scary. Snakes that talk are scary. Witches, rivers of blood, directed lightning, humans burning, etc. etc. is all very scary.
Tell me you have never done anything in your life that you feel bad about?
Of course I have. That has nothing to do with God though. I feel bad about it because of MY personal morality, not because I'm scared of what God will think.
If you were running heaven, how would you have it run?
I would accept everyone and wouldn't tell them about it until they're dead. Or I would just kill everyone, including all the unborn future souls, and bring everyone to heaven since it's pointless to keep people in some biosphere nonsense if there's no longer a test to put them through.
Do you think its unreasonable for God to expect us to love him, and love others?
Yes, we are human. God is some incomprehensible force of will. Why would such a being expect us to understand him and/or love something we have absolutely no real knowledge of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 07-29-2005 12:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 AM dsv has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 127 of 139 (227650)
07-30-2005 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by dsv
07-29-2005 3:38 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Your opinion is fine with me.
We don't need Christianity to save us.
Exactly, we need love.
The bible teaches us that Christ didn't come to make peace anyway. It's an impossibility given the human nature.
God in truth is love.
No. Some people are blissfully ignorant and choose to take the easiest route. I don't know many people that have explored many other religions and science before choosing Christianity, do you?
Well IMo I think everyone wonders inside them whether they seek or not. So they may not go out of their way to seek the truth, but everyone looks for it passing. Everyone I meet so far in life. I am guessing at that statistic, but I feel its everyone. Unless you already know the truth, then you need not seek it anymore.
Cool, I pray right now that God blesses you with it also.
I didn't feel anything. Try again, this time harder and longer.
Well, I said I pray right now for you, but I knew in my heart you weren't going to feel anything. Even if you did, you might not even admit it, or dismiss it so quickly and deny it ever happened.
How could I expect you to feel anything, it took me years to feel what I felt. That doesn't stop me for praying for you. Maybe a seed has been planted within you from this moment on, that you are unaware of. and one day you will experience it.
Well why would you? I mean, Christianity is the only one that's right -- you have confirmed it, you've felt the Holy Spirit -- why would we need all those other freakin religions? They're just fodder.
I guess thats what makes me different from most Christians. I will not judge those people, or their religions. But I will try to share with them whaty I know. But the choice is thiers. It doesn't affect me either way what they choose to believe. I only hope that we can get along in the mean time. If the way I choose is the truth, and I do a good job of conveying it to people, then the truth will do its own thing.
If you feel anything when I pray, it is not my doing but God's.
Shouldn't it be that way? am I not Christian because I believe that?
Are all spanish people the same? are all Christians the same? This country needs a big revival to bring people back to the way of the truth, and love, and get rid of all this judging and tradition, its for the birds.
Hell is scary. A God that damns people to Hell for living on a planet he created like a kid with an ant farm is scary. Snakes that talk are scary. Witches, rivers of blood, directed lightning, humans burning, etc. etc. is all very scary.
Your right, it sure is scary. But I can see it now, and believe it exists. I have always felt it in my heart, the evil of certain people. The big difference now, is that I know how to deal with it. I know how to reconize it and what to do about it. It's in the bible, it's called putting on the armor of God.
Also, a lot of what people call evil, or temptations of the devil, are just thier own short comings, and weaknesses.
Tell me you have never done anything in your life that you feel bad about?
Of course I have. That has nothing to do with God though. I feel bad about it because of MY personal morality, not because I'm scared of what God will think.
Your personal morality, could possibly = God's law on your heart, or the part that you choose to accept.
I never really understood how an atheist justifys feeling bad about doing anything, why they believe in good and evil, but not God. It just doesn't add up. I mean why give a crap, if we are just going to die, and thats it. Who cares if your name lives on in a book, or you kill 30 people in cold blood. What difference does it make, your dead, and thats it.
If you were running heaven, how would you have it run?
I would accept everyone and wouldn't tell them about it until they're dead. Or I would just kill everyone, including all the unborn future souls, and bring everyone to heaven since it's pointless to keep people in some biosphere nonsense if there's no longer a test to put them through.
If you don't mind, can you tell me what you do for a living. I want to relate a thought to you in a way you can understand. I will not use your occupation as a weapon against you.
Do you think its unreasonable for God to expect us to love him, and love others?
Yes, we are human. God is some incomprehensible force of will. Why would such a being expect us to understand him and/or love something we have absolutely no real knowledge of.
But we do, and thats why he sent his son, to further clarify that love. But somehow we still miss the point, I did for many years. After experiencing the Holy spirit, suddenly like a light bulb the bible became a 1000 times clearer to me, where as before I had a lot of questions about it. I mean I still have questions, but they are more easily answered, now.
Back to the topic, its funny on another thread in another forum, this topic came up. The mormons, have baptisms for people who are dead already, so that they may enter into Heaven. They base it on 1 Peter 4:6
6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Check out this link also:
http://lds.about.com/library/weekly/aa112902d.htm
I think its crazy, but that verse raises some questions. I know what I feel about it right off the bat, by asking the Holy Spirit, but I will study it further in depth.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 07-30-2005 12:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by dsv, posted 07-29-2005 3:38 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by dsv, posted 07-30-2005 11:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 128 of 139 (227737)
07-30-2005 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by riVeRraT
07-30-2005 12:32 AM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Does it seem like this is going nowhere to anyone else? I continue anyway.
We don't need Christianity to save us.
Exactly, we need love.
Then why don't you convert to Buddhism, since it doesn't matter which religion it is, as long as there's love and we all have an equal understanding? Why does everyone else have to make a change and you get to stay with Christianity?
I think Buddhism is a much better global religion for the purpose of having no war, accepting others, and having a pleasant life.
I'll convert if you do. Let's take a stand.
Well, I said I pray right now for you, but I knew in my heart you weren't going to feel anything. Even if you did, you might not even admit it, or dismiss it so quickly and deny it ever happened.
How could I expect you to feel anything, it took me years to feel what I felt. That doesn't stop me for praying for you. Maybe a seed has been planted within you from this moment on, that you are unaware of. and one day you will experience it.
In any other context, this would be called borderline schizophrenic behavior.
I guess thats what makes me different from most Christians. I will not judge those people, or their religions. But I will try to share with them whaty I know. But the choice is thiers. It doesn't affect me either way what they choose to believe. I only hope that we can get along in the mean time. If the way I choose is the truth, and I do a good job of conveying it to people, then the truth will do its own thing.
Nonsense. I'm tired of the "I don't judge people" crap. Yes, you judge people. What do you think it is you're following? Have you read the Bible? Can you turn more than 5 pages without something being judged?
If God thinks something is an abomination, I'm fairly certain that you think it is as well, otherwise you wouldn't be a true believer. How is that not judging? If you label it "sinning" that is a judgement, sir.
This country needs a big revival to bring people back to the way of the truth, and love, and get rid of all this judging and tradition, its for the birds.
The ONLY way to get rid of "all this judging and tradition" in this country is if this Christian movement decided to stop pushing their personal religious morality on Americans.
Your right, it sure is scary. But I can see it now, and believe it exists.
That must suck.
Your personal morality, could possibly = God's law on your heart, or the part that you choose to accept.
No.
I never really understood how an atheist justifys feeling bad about doing anything, why they believe in good and evil, but not God. It just doesn't add up. I mean why give a crap, if we are just going to die, and thats it. Who cares if your name lives on in a book, or you kill 30 people in cold blood. What difference does it make, your dead, and thats it.
Who is the real evil person then? The atheist that doesn't need some supernatural being to tell him not to kill people, doesn't need to go to a meeting every Sunday and remind himself not to be a complete asshole?
From your statement above I think you should, not walk, RUN, to church and reaffirm your morality, because you may very well be on the edge ready to go on a killing spree.
If you don't mind, can you tell me what you do for a living. I want to relate a thought to you in a way you can understand. I will not use your occupation as a weapon against you.
I am the Chief Technology Officer and Executive Board Member of a NASDAQ corporation in the neuroscience field.
(referring to mormons)I think its crazy, but that verse raises some questions.
Yes, it's definitely crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 9:03 PM dsv has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 129 of 139 (227975)
07-30-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by dsv
07-30-2005 11:00 AM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Then why don't you convert to Buddhism,
Well because buddhism did not show me God's true love for us.
There are 2 rules, Love God, then love others like you love yourself. But the second rule comes out better when you understand unselfish Godly love.
I will just love others, and if they want, they can ask me about God.
In here though, its a different story, we are discussing issues, and it's kind of hard to spread love in a forum, especially since I do not convey my thoughts all that well in to a written word. I do better at showing love in person.
In any other context, this would be called borderline schizophrenic behavior.
I often say that, the day I first felt the Holy Spirit, I eihter, A, came to know the Lord, or B, went crazy.
But yours is a typical response from someone who doesn't understand it.
Nonsense. I'm tired of the "I don't judge people" crap.
Yes, I stated that I do judge people, but I do not condemn people. Hey a sin is a sin according to the bible. You want me to change the bible for you?
I am a sinner, that puts me on the same level as you or anyone else, so I will not condemn you for anything. I also will not consent to your sin, or mine. I will forgive you, and myself for it as soon as humanly possible. Most of the time it is as you do it. For I cannot be forgiven, unless I forgive.
I don't judge those people or thier religions, because I do not know enough about it. I am not qualified to judge it.
I do see a lot about them, being involved in charity. I get to deal with other governments and religions from around the world.
The ONLY way to get rid of "all this judging and tradition" in this country is if this Christian movement decided to stop pushing their personal religious morality on Americans.
And what? go by an atheist/agnostic moral value system? What makes one better than the other? Christianity was here first, and all of our morals come from a long history of Gods, and rules, and religions.
Stop pushing your values, and I'll stop mine.
BTW, most Americans are fine with it, it is only a small group of people, that are trying to change everything. If it was really that bad, it would change.
It's like hollywood, and the news.
doesn't need to go to a meeting every Sunday and remind himself not to be a complete asshole
So much for intelligent conversation.
You haven't answered the question, just making stabs at Christians, or people who call themselves Christians, doesn't qualify you as someone who knows how to have an intelligent conversation. Try not insulting, and come up with an explanation to my question.
I am the Chief Technology Officer and Executive Board Member of a NASDAQ corporation in the neuroscience field.
Well I guess just like your field of work, all the mistakes you have to go through, before you find the ideas that produce positive results for you, this is life. How would the field you work in, be at the level it is now, unless you went through all the mistakes? don't you appreciate what has been learned so far? Doesn't making all the mistakes make the ideas that work more valuable?
But I guess you would reply that if God made it all right, then there would be no need for your line of work. But wouldn't making it all right, negate free will?
Do you think you are to smart to believe in God?
Thats not a dig at you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by dsv, posted 07-30-2005 11:00 AM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by dsv, posted 07-31-2005 12:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 130 of 139 (228107)
07-31-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by riVeRraT
07-30-2005 9:03 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Well because buddhism did not show me God's true love for us.
But it did show Buddhists something. It showed them Buddha's teaching for how to love and respect the world.
But yours is a typical response from someone who doesn't understand it.
I understand it. I was once a raving lunatic kid who went to church, prayed, said grace at dinner, believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc.
It was only after I started really studying that I started moving away from it. Not as a goal, mind you, just as an unexpected additional result of studying science and the universe. Once that happens, then you start studying the bible. It's odd actually, I have studied the bible more as an agnostic than I did as a Christian. In more detail anyway.
But anyway, I was a Catholic (I'm Italian) so it came down to the fact that even at a young age I decided that I didn't like the hate and extreme prejudice going around. I didn't feel like hating everyone.
The Pope's crimes against humanity didn't help either.
Yes, I stated that I do judge people, but I do not condemn people. Hey a sin is a sin according to the bible. You want me to change the bible for you?
Not at all. I understand the position, I don't fault you for it or anything. I just don't understand why someone would be a part of it.
And what? go by an atheist/agnostic moral value system? What makes one better than the other? Christianity was here first, and all of our morals come from a long history of Gods, and rules, and religions.
Not an atheist/agnostic moral value system, a human one. A default one. One that includes us all. One that puts life on this planet first.
You haven't answered the question, just making stabs at Christians, or people who call themselves Christians, doesn't qualify you as someone who knows how to have an intelligent conversation. Try not insulting, and come up with an explanation to my question.
What? Look at your "question" here:
quote:
I never really understood how an atheist justifys feeling bad about doing anything, why they believe in good and evil, but not God. It just doesn't add up. I mean why give a crap, if we are just going to die, and thats it. Who cares if your name lives on in a book, or you kill 30 people in cold blood. What difference does it make, your dead, and thats it.
  —riVeRraT
You stated that if we were without God, everyone would just be killing eachother since "why give a crap?". You're telling me that I'm incapable of intelligent conversation now? I was point out the lunacy of that. Monks aren't killing themselves and murdering -- but I guess they have "God's law" in their hearts they've just yet to find Jesus.
Come on man...
Do you think you are to smart to believe in God?
Not at all. In fact, I'm perfectly open to some kind of God somewhere or some higher power or existence pre-singularity. I'm not open to Christianity and the bible, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 9:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 07-31-2005 7:21 PM dsv has not replied
 Message 132 by CK, posted 07-31-2005 7:25 PM dsv has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 131 of 139 (228214)
07-31-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by dsv
07-31-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
But it did show Buddhists something. It showed them Buddha's teaching for how to love and respect the world.
That's great, and why I will not judge them, or hate them for believing what they want to believe. I have on the other hand found peace and love through Christ. You on the other hand have not, as you left your religion.
We are not all that much different. I am an Italian, and was raised Catholic. I realized when I was 8, that what I was experienceing with the Catholic church was a bunch of crap. I did not like the hate and judging going on. I also didn't like the tradition that chokes them.
I spent the next 17 years thinking that God and the Christian religion was a big joke. But when my first child was born, I felt something, and started searching for God through the bible. It took another 13 years before I finally felt what I felt, and experienced the Holy SPirit.
I just don't understand why someone would be a part of it.
I used to run around saying what is a sin? Why does the bible say this and that about what we should do and not do. But something happens when you stop what the bible defines as sin. Sin blocks you from experiencing the Holy Spirit to a degree. It stops you from hearing from God. I didn't even really understand the word repent, to me it was just some crazy word the nut case Christians would say all the time.
Once I gave my best effort at stopping sin, I was able to hear from God much better. I also had to improve my character, repent, and pray more. It's about integrety, something that your average person who calls himself Christian seems to be missing these days. It really doesn't matter what you call yourself, it's about the integrety, and prayer, and worship. It's about Loving God, and loving others.
Not an atheist/agnostic moral value system, a human one. A default one
I don't think there is a default one. One that everyone would agree on. Just because there are people who do not believe in God, does not mean there is a default moral system. That in itself is a god.
You stated that if we were without God, everyone would just be killing eachother
Yes, but I also said "Who cares if your name lives on in a book," meaning all the people who do good, just for the sake of good, and try to leave a good mark here on the earth.
But you chose to focus on the killing spree.
I used to do good for good, and people never seemed to get it. I always felt the desire in my heart to do good. I always felt, just in case there is a God, I will do good. I never liked the feeling I got when I did bad things to myself and others in my life. I mean I am no murderer, but I ahve done a few bad things, (I probably did things to hurt people, and didn't even know it) we all have probably. My point is, none of it really made total sense, until I experienced the Holy Spirit, and started doing good for God. It is much more fulfilling. I get to do what God designed me to do, and that is be extremely forgiving, and help others. Also to use the gifts that God gave me to glorify him. The guidance of the Holy Spirit has made me more aware of the whole good and bad thing. My sensitivity to evil, and to peoples feelings has increased. I can feel peoples spirits better now. I don't just listen to peoples words, but I listen to thier spirits.
I'm not open to Christianity and the bible, though.
Well I hope that your reason for not believing in Christianity is not because of what Chrsitians do. I hope you have biblical reasoning for it. I hope that you are not looking for God in people, because you will never find it there.
God is in your heart, that's where you'll find him, IMO.
That brings us back to the main topic here, and that is who will get to go to heaven or not.
So I am guessing you do not accept Christ as your saviour, or accept him as the son of God.
What is your reasoning for that? You don't have to answer. You have answered some of it already.
But I find you to be a smart person, so why haven't you been able to figure it out yet? It goes back to what I said earlier, that no one here knows what is on your heart, or knows what you've been through, except you and God. I have always felt that God will judge you at your time of death, and decide if you had a fair chance to accept Jesus, and then let you in.
How difficult it is to accept Jesus these days, with all that Christians have done wrong in this world. With all the technology, and science, that would indicate to us, that Jesus and God, just doesn't exist the way we think he does. We have so much, why do we need God?
How many times have you walked into a church and said to yourself, this is a bunch of crap?
*edit to add this*
The bible says no one goes to the Father except by Jesus. I think we need to ask ourselve, and God, just what is the meaning of the word Jesus? I think that is what jar is trying to say. I think people in my own church would disagree with me for sayng this, but I am a little more open minded than them?
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 07-31-2005 07:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by dsv, posted 07-31-2005 12:28 PM dsv has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by CK, posted 07-31-2005 7:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 132 of 139 (228216)
07-31-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by dsv
07-31-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
quote:
Not at all. In fact, I'm perfectly open to some kind of God somewhere or some higher power or existence pre-singularity. I'm not open to Christianity and the bible, though.
I'm just the same, maybe there is a god but it's not the christian one.
BTW - he will get bored of trying to convert you and move onto someone else soon, but I've guess you've seen all of the questions designed to open up some chink in the armour? (I have)
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 31-Jul-2005 07:26 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 31-Jul-2005 07:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by dsv, posted 07-31-2005 12:28 PM dsv has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 07-31-2005 11:37 PM CK has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 133 of 139 (228219)
07-31-2005 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by riVeRraT
07-31-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Let's see how my answers compare to his
So I am guessing you do not accept Christ as your saviour, or accept him as the son of God.
Nope
What is your reasoning for that?
The bible, it's quite dull the narrative makes little sense, it's blown out of the water by everything we know about science,history and culture.
How difficult it is to accept Jesus these days, with all that Christians have done wrong in this world
I'm not bothered in that sense what they have done but in terms of me, their religion makes no sense at all.
How many times have you walked into a church and said to yourself, this is a bunch of crap?
Lots - everything time since I was 15.
just what is the meaning of the word Jesus?
To me it's the name given to a fictional construct in the bible based upon a man who *may* have existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 07-31-2005 7:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by riVeRraT, posted 07-31-2005 11:35 PM CK has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 134 of 139 (228271)
07-31-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by CK
07-31-2005 7:39 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
The bible, it's quite dull the narrative makes little sense, it's blown out of the water by everything we know about science,history and culture.
Thats news to me. Last I heard nothing is really proven wrong in the bible. What book are YOU reading?
I'm not bothered in that sense what they have done but in terms of me, their religion makes no sense at all.
I think I told you this before, I suggest you stop looking towards religion for your answers. Religion is created by man. It works for some, but not all.
How many times have you walked into a church and said to yourself, this is a bunch of crap?
Lots - everything time since I was 15.
Me too, since I was 8, until 1.5 years ago. That's 30 years of crap.
To me it's the name given to a fictional construct in the bible based upon a man who *may* have existed.
lol@charles Knight.org.com.net
Sounds like a cop out to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by CK, posted 07-31-2005 7:39 PM CK has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 135 of 139 (228272)
07-31-2005 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by CK
07-31-2005 7:25 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
I cannot convert anyone.
edit
I have been talking to you for how long about it?
What's my purpose for doing that? Have I stopped?
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 07-31-2005 11:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by CK, posted 07-31-2005 7:25 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by CK, posted 08-01-2005 5:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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