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Member (Idle past 6503 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does Islam need a Reformation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Steve,
I'll only discuss with you and I'll ignore Faith because she's incapable of rational discussion.
quote: Well I haven't been impressed by your replies at the London bomb thread and the other Islam reformation thread. But I'll overlook that for now.
quote: From what I know about the history of Islam, during the lifetime of Muhammad, expansion was limited to Arabia and parts of the Middle East[up to Syria & Iraq by his death]. I can admit that some is motivated by a lust of conquest. Islam united warlike Arab tribes. Now that they can't fight each other anymore, the only way to channel their aggression is outside. And their immediate neighbours happen to be the Christian Eastern Roman Empire. The lust to conquest is not exclusive to Arabs. It also appeared among Mongols [see Genghis Khan and his descendants], Romans, exploration-age Europeans. The Qur'an just happen not to curb it. Besides, if you compare it to Christianity, Christianity also borrows the power of conquerors [its association with the Roman Empire helped it spread across the old world]. But since you're Jewish [IIRC] I'm sure that doesn't concern you. The Qur'an does not say anything about world domination though. It's just this lust for conquest looked for a religious backing from time to time. I'll leave aside the Israel issue for this moment. I know we see it differently, but the fact is its existence flamed a common cause among modern-day Islamists. About comparing al-Qaeda with the Wahabbis, the Iran Revolution, and the Ikhwan al-Muslimin, do understand that all three movements are more concerned with local issues [Saudi, Iran, Egypt]. Al-Qaeda & co. is international-oriented and they have no negotiable goals [unlike, say, the Ikhwan or Hizbullah, who has been incorporated into politics in Egypt and Syria].
quote: You're exaggerating the millions upon millions there. If only it's like that, we should see all Muslims will behave like the Islamists. But we don't. The majority of Muslims are peace-loving moderates. About the Sword verses, do read Jazzns' exposition. It is true that taken out of context they can be used to justify violence but that's selective quoting.
quote: FYI, I won't say that Islamist terrorists have 'solid theological reasoning'. How can they be, if they violate the 'no killing innocents' rule? But then again, Islam does not have a central authority so nobody can enforce their interpretation onto the whole body of Muslims [unlike Catholics]. The Islamists, and not just them, many Muslims are outraged by what they see as injustice and exploitation by the US. In recent years, the invasion of Afghanistan [which failed to eradicate Osama] and the illegal invasion of Iraq has put more fuel to the fire. A friend of mine in an informal discussion that GW Bush can be said as Osama's main recruiting lieutenant: GWB's policies has made more people support the terrorists' cause. The 'war on terror' could've been done in a better way. Indonesia managed to handle its own band of al-Qaeda supporters and violent Islamists efficiently: almost all living plotters of the Bali bomb, and many of those involved in latter cases have been captured and jailed. Why didn't the US, say, send teams of intelligence agents and special troops to infiltrate, say, Afghanistan or Pakistan and capture OBL, Mullah Omar, al-Zawahiri, etc. I'm sure the US authorities is capable of doing that operation. But instead of doing that, Bush brought his whole armed forces and destroyed two countries and millions of innocent citizens on the way. And still he failed to catch the culprits.
quote: Unfortunately, I can't see that this proposal will work. Every Muslim knows agrees that there is only one accepted Arabic text of the Qur'an, and it has never been altered since it was revealed to the Messenger. The closest you can get is to teach peaceful interpretations of the Qur'an, and this has been happening all the way, as evidenced by the majority of Muslims who are peaceful. Yes, we need a reformation. I know that sometimes Muslim religious teachers taught hate and bigotry. These are one part of the problem, which Muslims must address. The other part is on the Westerners' hands, to try to understand issues that concern Muslims. European nations IMO have a better handle on the Muslim issue, but I still don't see wise moves by the US. The need for reformation and change is Westerners' too.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, it's pretty hard to take a text serious that makes such major mistakes. If the author is a scholar then he is simply a liar.
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization. What complete nonsense. Christianity made its conquests by the sword, the rack, the stake, the pillory, deseased blankets, fear and raw power. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Hence my refusal to discuss with her. That last sentence, claiming the last chapter of the Qur'an as an order to annihilate non-Muslims, is just false. The last chapter, an-Nas, 'the Man', is a prayer for protection!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absolutely correct. But as a Christian, I don't believe I can in honesty refuse to try to correct her. I think it is very important to correct false doctrine among people who call themselves Christians, who are only confusing everybody.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, it's pretty hard to take a text serious that makes such major mistakes. If the author is a scholar then he is simply a liar. Philip Schaff's credentials and his long list of references are impeccable and you should be ashamed to say such a thing. If we are required to produce evidence, opponents should be required to recognize the evidence and refute it with equally qualified evidence.
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization.
What complete nonsense. Christianity made its conquests by the sword, the rack, the stake, the pillory, deseased blankets, fear and raw power. The whole work by Schaff does not slight such incidents in Christian history. Read the chapter on the Crusades -- but staggeringly brutal as it was, this had nothing to do with spreading the gospel, as Mohammed's killings did -- they were wars of conquest and retaliation. What Schaff says is true about how Christianity was SPREAD to others. Read his chapter about how Europe was Christianized. It took centuries of missionary work to the European barbarian tribes and was barely completed just before the Crusades. {EDIT: You are not making a distinction between the wars of Christendom and the evangelism of the gospel for conversion. The Inquisition was hardly about converting anyone, and there was ONE incident of diseased blankets PURPOSELY given to the Indians, and it was NOT done in the name of Christianity. You are the ignorant one, Jar, and given to making bald assertions without evidence too. This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:56 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:58 AM
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry Faith but Hawaii was stolen by Missionaries for personal gain. Indian Children were rounded up and forced into Missionary schools, forced to abandon their culture, heritage and even their language. The South American Codexes were burned by Priests because they were pagan. The Conquests of Constantine were in the name of the Christian God. The Crusades were solely rape and pillage sold in the name of the Christian God. Christianity became the state religion throughout Europe through conquest and pogroms against Jews and other non-believers were constant and continuous. Jewish Ghettos were common throughout Europe until WWII.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are to dispute a contention with evidence, not namecalling. Calling me irrational is a violation of the Forum Guidelines. I produced the exhaustively researched work of a renowned scholar for my evidence and you and Jar have answered with nothing but insults and assertions.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3942 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Please address the issue of the context as it concerns conversion by the sword.
I realize that it does say that infidels must pay a tax but that is very different from 'convert or die'. You get no brownie points for showing that the Koran teaches a dislike of other religions. Dislike and special treatement are worlds different from what you originally suggested. You are required to address rebuttals. If you expect to be taken seriously you must debate honestly. Show me, using the text of the Koran, how my interpretation that those verses DO NOT mandate conversion by the sword is wrong given the full context in which they are written. You need to address my specific points. Too many times we forget that this is a moderated debate board. I will not be forgetting that during this discussion. Organizations worth supporting: Electronic Frontier Foundation | Defending your rights in the digital world (Protect Privacy and Security) Home | American Civil Liberties Union (Protect Civil Rights) AAUP (Protect Higher Learning)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Christianity became the religion of Europe almost exclusively through the work of missionaries.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH* {Late edit: Error. Meant to link THIS chapter, though the above is good too, and this one has problems in the beginning, though I've reported the bug to the site so it may change soon: HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH* You do not know your history. And the other incidents you name were violations of the teachings of Christ, whereas Mohammed himself set the theme for conversion to Islam by force. This message has been edited by Faith, 07-29-2005 06:29 AM
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3942 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Once again all of you experts on the term 'jihad' are also critics of Islam (yes including the Moslem woman who write that book, you will find many real Christians on this board criticial of Christianity as well).
Have you ever found a real definition of 'jihad' from an Arabic scholar? A Moslem scholar? Someone who is actually part of the culture that uses that term? Take an analogy. What if I went around saying the the word 'aloha' means hello in Hawaiian? I wouldn't be wrong but I would also not be entirely correct. No if you used my 'expert' analysis of the word 'aloha' in a debate you would be using an invalid source because in actuality the word 'aloha' means many things from hello, goodbye, and various degrees of love depending on the context. Now who would be a better source, me or an actual Polynesian historian or even a native Hawaiian? How about we find out what 'jihad' means from the Arabs? Why are you so attached to sites with an anti-arab or extreme conservative bias (I particularly loved the image of the woman on the frontpagemag site that had a shirt which said "I neutered my pet and now they are liberal"). Quality sources there CS. Quality sources. Organizations worth supporting: Electronic Frontier Foundation | Defending your rights in the digital world (Protect Privacy and Security) Home | American Civil Liberties Union (Protect Civil Rights) AAUP (Protect Higher Learning)
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm sorry but once again, that's simply not correct. Rulers ruled by the Divine Right. Christianity. They took the first pass with the pretty bride because they had Divine Right. You were a Christian (often one of only a particular cult) or you were enemy. Protestant killed Catholic, Catholic killed Protestant, both killed the Jew.
I'm sorry but Schaff seems like just another Christian Bigot. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
The 'renowned scholar' couldn't even get the facts straight! [That 'last chapter' quote did it for me]. Hence I ignore you. I know how you behave at discussions. At least Steve showed a willingness to discuss things in good faith [pun intended].
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The exact same thing can be said of Christianity.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The 'renowned scholar' couldn't even get the facts straight! [That 'last chapter' quote did it for me]. Your job is to PROVE it, not assert it, according to the rules of EvC.
Hence I ignore you. I know how you behave at discussions. At least Steve showed a willingness to discuss things in good faith [pun intended]. I don't care if you ignore me, I'll be just as happy to ignore you. But your entire argument so far is nothing but assertion and personal slur and the above is a perfect Ad Hominem.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your opinion is irrelevant. You are arguing from opinion and assertion and proving nothing. How rulers ruled is off topic. The topic is how people were converted to the faith. I gave you a link to the information that Europe was converted by missionaries over a period of many centuries. You keep referring to military actions and other time periods and other contexts altogether, that have nothing to do with the methods of conversion. And above all you do nothing but opinionate, you give no proof even of your off topic points. I gave a scholar's work full of citations.
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