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Author Topic:   Genes and Personality
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 30 (221428)
07-03-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
07-02-2005 1:18 PM


It does seem to me however that the final conclusion that was come to, as it rgards my question, is that personality traits are at least in large part inherited.
That is not correct. The conclusion is that the actual proportion of traits which are inherited are unknown, and may well remain unknown or unknowable for some time.
In fact, depending on what you mean by "traits", it is possible that very few or all are inherited. That is probably one of the first things that has to get specified. There is currently an equivocation in that field between behaviors and functions which might underlie behaviors and so effect them in some way (though not in an absolutely detremined way).
I am left wondering is there any empirical evidence from DNA research where a specific gene was identified that produced specific personality traits?
As of this date I am pretty confident that the answer is 100% no.
And it is my position (which I will add has been tested by two different proponents of Evo Psych) is that the answers to such questions will require much more genetic, and neurological research. And then I feel it is likely that genetics won't play as an important a role as developmental environment.
Certainly the brain is a physical organ and so one's very being, including behaviors, are manifested from a set of physical objects and chemical functions. However genes are likely just going to be presets for how a brain will develop given an environment, rather than in any environment. And even then it may be more probabilistic then deterministic.
By the way, anyone interested in the physical nature of who we are (genetically determined or other) I highly recommend Oliver Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 07-02-2005 1:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 2:33 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 30 (221603)
07-04-2005 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
07-04-2005 2:33 AM


Obviously this is just something to think about as it can't be tested but I think it makes more sense than Dawkins memes but that is just my opinion. Whether it is memes or spiritual genes it is really a faith issue.
Actually it can be in some ways. With advanced genetic and neurological research/understanding of how the brain forms and functions, as well as how brain physical forms and functions relate to behaviors and traits, we can start weeding out some of the above possibilities.
We are not nearly at that point now, and it is a field of exploration. Having been reading up on neuro alot recently I find it one of the most interesting fields of research going on at this time. It begins to place identity and traits in a physical object capable of being studied. Again I recommend Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.
If personality traits are at all spiritual, how then do you explain the change of personality and behavior in individuals with physical brain changes? It seems to me the only possible explanation would be that the physical brain acts as a conduit for the spirit, and perhaps brain abnormalities can skew the spirit's ability to properly control the body.
I spent very little time with my biological father but I have many of his physical traits but I also have many of his personality traits.
This is not sarcastic, but goes back to a question I raised in my original reply: What do you define as personality traits? Which ones do you share with your biological father and how do you know this?
Remember that I am not excluding this possibility, though I do doubt that a majority of ones personality would be shaped in this way.
Dawkins suggests that it is memes and passed along through the brain some how, but that is pure conjecture and there is no empirical evidence as far as I know.
Memes sound like BS to me.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 2:33 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 11:09 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 30 (221840)
07-05-2005 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
07-04-2005 11:09 AM


I have no doubt myself that we have a spiritual component which is termed soul, spirit or consciousness. This has been gone over on other threads about what evidence there is for this but very briefly I contend that in my consciousness there is a "me" that isn't ageing along with the rest of my body. It has just always been me no matter what my age. That consciousness that is "me" has gained knowledge, (arguably wisdom ) and so on but it is just as, or more, vibrant than it was when my body was twenty.
If it is true that you have a soul which is separate from body, and thus is universal in some aspect, then how exactly could your father have passed on his personality to you? What would be the mechanism of his soul influencing your soul's nature?
Also, if the body does act as a conduit between soul and worldly function, how do you disentangle bodily constraints causing the appearance of a specific personality and your soul's actual personality?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 07-04-2005 11:09 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 07-05-2005 11:19 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 18 of 30 (221889)
07-05-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
07-05-2005 11:19 AM


The term mechanism to me implies something physical
No a mechanism can be anything as long as there is a chain of cause and effect. I am trying to figure out how an eternal soul with certain traits gives another eternal soul certain traits, when their only apparent connection is a temporary physical connection of passing physical genes from one body to another.
There must be some mechanism, even if it involves spirits.
If for example someone suffers brain damage.
Actually I already understood that explanation you gave for why a damaged brain would not properly reflect the soul it is representing (or receiving inputs from). My question is how do you determine the difference between a brain that is damaged and so altering inputs, and the fact that a brain itself (functioning perfectly) might influence inputs?
It seems to me the latter is not only possible, but necessary given environmental factors known to effect the brain. Thus we can never really see or know the spirit nature behind it, and thus whether your spirit is really like your dad, or whether the brain you have has given you similar outputs given specific inputs as your dad.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 07-05-2005 11:19 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 07-05-2005 3:18 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 20 of 30 (222065)
07-06-2005 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
07-05-2005 3:18 PM


If I’m correct in this then it also could logically follow that when the physical sperm and egg unite that there is also a parallel spiritual bonding. I agree that this is speculation but to me it makes sense based on my own observations and experience.
Well this is interesting. You are correct that it is speculation, but then outside of direct rebuttal as well.
(It raises another issue that has puzzled me for some time. I am a Christian and I believe in an afterlife that is outside of time. How do I enter a world that is outside of time at a point in time? Or, how do you arrive in an existence outside of time part way through eternity when time has no meaning?)
More important in this specific case is why and how would two spirits who are only interacting at a point in time, end up affecting (creating?) a spirit outside of time. You not only have the problem of the infinite affecting the temporal, but the temporal effecting the infinite.
Thanks for your responses, I very much enjoy thinking these things through, and it’s a healthy thing for both my brain and soul.
Sure, they are interesting ideas and keep the mind active. Maybe they could be true as well, we'll just have to wait and see.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 07-05-2005 3:18 PM GDR has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 22 of 30 (222076)
07-06-2005 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Jack
07-06-2005 5:22 AM


I have asked that same question (most souls being born) with regard to the abortion debate. It actually leads to some other questions as well, regarding destruction of souls.
Antiabortion people often act as if it is such a tragedy, but if the souls are universal and simply moved to occupy a body at some time and are denied at that time, what then is the tragedy? Are they capable of being harmed by this, or unable to manifest themselves later?
Great line of questioning, and thank you for mentioning Chimera, I had not heard of that phenomena before and so am vastly intrigued... off to the library!

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Jack, posted 07-06-2005 5:22 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Dr Jack, posted 07-06-2005 6:25 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 07-06-2005 10:37 AM Silent H has not replied

  
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