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Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
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Author | Topic: For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, isn't that great for her. Well, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that I'm not as attractive as most of the women in porn that I have seen. I'm not unattractive, but I'm far from cellulite-and saddlebag-free.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Other than the gossip mags reaching possibly more people, I see no difference. You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you?
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
sure you do - the "gonzo" home-made porn that has become very popular is full of them - I have a friend who works in the industry so he fills me in.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:26 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I think perhaps degradation is in the eye of the beholder. That's right: the beholder includes the doer. You are using the word "degradation" in a very odd way. Being fooled is not the same thing as being degraded. I might buy a car that I thought was good but turns out to be a lemon. I am not "degraded" by this, merely fooled. But if I was very sensitve about my car-knowledge, I suppose I might feel degraded. However, if I am forced to do things that I find humiliating and disgusting, then I have been degraded. This would not apply to the antics of those people at Benny Hinn's meetings unless you are implying that they are consciously faking these antics and do not want to but are being forced to fake such antics and that they find these actions humiliating. If someone was a believer in Benny Hinn's faith healing powers and then later came to know that Hill was a fraud, then he might feel degraded at that later point in time.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
...which doesn't mean they exactly wanted to be there. Women have long done sexual things in order to keep a man. "If you really loved me you would do X." Although it is true that their presence does not indicate that they wanted to be there, your insinuation that they don't because it is a sex movie is crap. People have long done things for people they love, which they might not exactly have chosen by themselves, in order to keep the one they love. If I said when I went to church (or rock concert etc etc) I rarely saw such event where the audience did not include women brought by their bfs, would you have said that they were only there for their boyfriends? The idea that women would be less likely to have wanted to do sexual things than men is patently sexist. Yes there were and are cases of men who forced women into sexual acts they did not want, that does not cast a shadow over every other man. Nor does the prudishness of some women cast a shadow over all women. You have got to escape the traditional feminist mindset. This message has been edited by holmes, 06-28-2005 06:32 PM holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Well, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that I'm not as attractive as most of the women in porn that I have seen. You showed a pic of yourself and are hot. My guess is you just haven't seen much porn at all, and if you saw any probably concentrated on girls that you felt looked better than yourself. Honestly, how much porn have you seen? How much of the market have you looked at to find what the average girl looks like? There are whole sections devoted to the "not perfect" ideal, and even the "perfect" girls generally have flaws which can be seen. Pride in one's body for what it is, and your sexuality, is all that is really necessary to be sexy. You may not be everyone's favorite, but does everyone please you? holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5850 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you? Very very few would ever concentrate on those aspects (though there are some) so now you don't really see such things in most porn. Though you can see them if you look because they are there. In still image porn in the largest corporate mags you will not, because they airbrush everything out. If that is all you look at, then it is true you will not see it. As CK has already pointed out the about to be crippled, though once booming, indie market is filled with natural as beautiful. I believe I even mentioned some example sites you could look at. If you do not see it then you simply are not looking, holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Hello, schraf. Yes, I am aware that their presence didn't mean that they wanted to be there. On the other hand, this was when we were all in high school and college, and a lot of the attraction to pornography at this time was plain old curiosity -- this was in the late 70s and early 80s when there was very little explicit sexuality anywhere. I simply point out the possibility that some of these young women may have been as motivated by curiosity about sexuality as most of us men.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
It seems to me that we are debating two different things - Holmes and I (and a couple of others) seem to be discuss pornography in the broader sense from the girl with her webcam to the man and his wife with a video camera to the corporate produced and released material (which is very significant). Most of you seem to be focusing entirely on the corporate material. It's sort of like going to the multiplex and then complaining movies are rubbish because they are all shallow blockbusters.
In addition, many of you are unwilling to either discuss porn or clarify your positions in any meanful detail. That is your right but it makes it impossible to have any form of debate. This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:52 PM This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:57 PM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
You're British, right? Let me inform you that here in the US, once the topic turns to sex people's brains pretty much turn off, and there is a good chance of outright hysteria setting in (especially when the topic is teen sex). It is pretty difficult to have a serious conversation about sex in this country.
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Hah - it's salary here, you NEVER NEVER discuss how much money you earn with people (not even your family).
For me it's not a matter of like or dislike (and I don't like or watch porn), it's a matter of freedom.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
That is funny -- here in the US it is so important to compare how much we earn with each other that we tatoo our salaries on our foreheads. (My paycheck is about $2200 a month after taxes, by the way.)
I actually have no opinion on whether or not porn is demeaning to women. I find what others have to say about it interesting. However, even if the majority of porn that is currently produced is demeaning, I figure that is simply part of being in a culture that is still intrinsically patriarchal. The solution, in my opinion, is to work toward a society that really does respect and value women as equal human beings (and pointing out misogyny in porn may be a part of this) -- then erotic art would naturally transform into a healthier expression of human sexuality -- fit, perhaps, even for children. At any rate, I have never understood why those who are sincerely concerned with the well-being of women want to solve the "porn problem" by giving political power to a movement that is so overtly antagonistic to the well-being of women.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Thanks, but honestly, you didn't see me naked. Most people look better with carefully chosen clothing, most definitely me.
quote: I have looked around the internet, seen stuff that was supposed to appeal to straight men, to lesbians, to straight women, to gay men. Nobody looked like me. They were nearly all either shapely and thin or really obese. I even saw a site which was supposed to appear as a diary or scorecard of a man who was having sex with "plain, ugly women" because they were so unattractive as to be desperate, and none of them had the body fat that I do. And I don't have a huge amount. I'm sorry, I have searched specifically for average women several times out of curiosity, but I mostly only find extremes.
quote: Like I said, I went looking and while it may be a niche, it certainly ain't common.
quote: Yeah, well, that's easy to say and easy to intellectually "know" but not always so easy to believe. Look, I'm not stupid. I know who the men at my workplace are attracted to and who they aren't. I know who the boys and men at high school and college were attracted to and who they weren't. I'm not the type that men generally think of as beautiful or sexy, I'm just not. I have found this to be the case both during times of low self esteem and high. I just don't care during the high self-esteem days. You know who gives me that kind of flirtatious attention at work and in life? The 65 year old men and the middle-aged self-important ex-hippies who did too much acid in the late 60's who corner me to recite to me their manifesto. Oh, and the lesbians. The lesbians are sweet that way.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Can I just say? There's two kinds of physical attractiveness that a woman (for that matter, a person in general) can have; there's the kind that comes from being physically fit, and from having a personal style that works, and other "after-market" things. Then there's the stuff that you have to be born with. (God, please don't ask me to deliniate which is which. Stuff like symmetry, etc.)
Models are born with the latter, and their job is to develop the former (which they are obviously very good at). Porn actresses are usually women who lack the latter and try to make up for it with the former. (Not in all cases.) And very often really attractive-yet-shy women, who don't consider themselves attractive despite entreaties from others that they are, are born with often-times considerable natural attractiveness, but who - for very valid reasons - have underdeveloped skills in the other departments. (Tends to be the girl geeks.) All I know is, I'm no 60-year-old or hippie with a manefesto (and definately not a lesbian), and I thought Holmes was dead-on. You've got that certain something that you just have to be born with.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Thanks, really, you are very sweet.
I guess I'm maybe just having a bad day and I'm letting all the critical voices in my head win. I really just wish it wasn't so hard sometimes. It feels like such a lonely battle.
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