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Author Topic:   Why read the Bible literally?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 211 of 304 (218793)
06-22-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
06-22-2005 7:51 PM


Re: Ouch!
Unless you sincerely apologize.
Oh? Did you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 7:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 212 of 304 (218795)
06-22-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by LinearAq
06-22-2005 1:16 PM


Re: An aside and questions.
... if you take the stance that a document is literally true before you read it then you can make any document true.
The Bible is the only "document" (COLLECTION of documents to be accurate) that purports to have been inspired by God Himself, in which over millennia God is repeatedly quoted directly by many different prophets, in which God is shown to have acted in specific ways, and which overall has been believed by millions as truly the testimony of the one true God {Edit: Please note that God had no part in inspiring the Koran although it is ascribed to God after the fact}, and this belief has overall brought about extraordinarily good results in the world for millennia. This is not even remotely true of any other religion let alone the fiction you list.
Whether you believe in it or not, this qualifies it for special regard. If you insist on putting it on a plane with other things that can't compare with it in the slightest, I don't see how I could persuade you out of that since I've tried and failed already on this thread as it is.
About the Validity of Written Documents thread, been-there-done-that about all I care to for now and here is one of my contributions to that very thread:
http://EvC Forum: Validity of Written Documents -->EvC Forum: Validity of Written Documents
The questions are: What is lost if the Flood story is not taken literally? Does this nullify the value of Christ's sacrifice?
It diminishes it for sure. Jesus IS the God who taught Noah to build the ark, and His sacrifice has its true infinite value only if ALL His work is recognized including the destruction of the world for sin. Jesus IS the God through whom all things were made, Jesus IS the God who "was before Abraham was." Doubting any part of the whole testimony diminishes the meaning of the sacrifice of Christ.
"Nullify" I don't know. Beyond a certain point I'm sure the denial of God-breathed scripture amounts to a nullification, but I'm not prepared to define that point. Not believing that Jesus is God Himself is very likely a nullification but it may be that He is merciful even to some who go that far. Denying that the Flood occurred certainly deprives the sacrifice of a great deal of ennobling context, but I can't say if it "nullifies" it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-22-2005 11:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by LinearAq, posted 06-22-2005 1:16 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by LinearAq, posted 06-23-2005 1:22 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 213 of 304 (218796)
06-22-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by crashfrog
06-22-2005 8:02 PM


Re: Ouch!
No, I was suspended. Please follow the argument. It's an either/or here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 8:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 8:30 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 304 (218797)
06-22-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by jar
06-22-2005 7:59 PM


Re: Worshipping the wrong thing.
Oh sorry, you did say that. He SAYS that in his FICTIONAL work????? Does that really count as a theological statement?
I do own the Narnia collection but most of my books are in boxes, some of which are also in storage, so I don't know when I can check this out.
Any chance you would be so kind as to quote it?
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-22-2005 08:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 7:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 8:31 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 215 of 304 (218798)
06-22-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
06-22-2005 8:25 PM


Re: Ouch!
It's an either/or here.
How do you figure? I don't recall the admins saying "apologize or you're suspended."
I'm not inclined to grant you anymore courtesy than I have recieved from you. The admins will do what they want, assuming they can actually locate some pretense. You might have to help them with that.
But being suspended didn't absolve you of a need to apologize for your statements to me. I didn't suspend you, after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:35 PM crashfrog has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 216 of 304 (218799)
06-22-2005 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
06-22-2005 8:28 PM


Re: Worshipping the wrong thing.
Love to but I gave my most recent set to a youngster. Hell yes it counts as a theological work. Does Genesis count as a theological work? LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:28 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 304 (218801)
06-22-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by crashfrog
06-22-2005 8:30 PM


Re: Ouch!
I'm not telling the Admins what to do, I'm defining what I will accept from you, and it does happen to be in keeping with the forum rules. I will not accept your personal comments. I am pointing out to you that I was suspended for mine. I am giving you the option of apologizing since I'm not in a position to suspend you.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-22-2005 08:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 8:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 8:46 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 218 of 304 (218805)
06-22-2005 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
06-22-2005 8:35 PM


Re: Ouch!
I'm defining what I will accept from you, and it does happen to be in keeping with the forum rules.
Could you show me that rule?
I will not accept your personal comments.
So don't accept them. God, who cares? If you don't accept them, then ignore them, and answer the questions.
Or, don't. Last I checked you were an adult. Although when you carry on like this I'm not so sure. (That's literally a true statement. Your age is not known to me.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 219 of 304 (218806)
06-22-2005 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by crashfrog
06-22-2005 8:46 PM


Re: Ouch!
You get no answers until you treat me with respect.
Or, don't. Last I checked you were an adult. Although when you carry on like this I'm not so sure. (That's literally a true statement. Your age is not known to me.)
That is another personal offense you should be suspended for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 8:46 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 9:37 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 220 of 304 (218820)
06-22-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Brian
06-20-2005 2:09 PM


Brian's abusiveness
This is off topic but since I was recently called on the carpet for a non-offense, I am now going to start pointing out genuine offenses that I've been putting up with that are nothing short of character assassination, the lowest meanest personal smears.
Brian's first post on this subject Message 116 was nothing but a smear against the character of all Bible-believers as he developed his "case" that we all demonstrate weak faith. It was character assassination and it was off topic, but how was it treated? It was lauded and nominated for POTM, unlike my later wits'-end post Message 151 in response to his abuse, in which I nevertheless did not get personal, yet it was nominated for POTM RIDICULE and myself suspended from SCIENCE forums as if I'd said a word about SCIENCE Message 152!
I answered him with an objective statement about how he was exactly reversing things and was defining as weak faith what is in fact strong faith Message 126. Percy at least seemed to see my point Message 130, though I'm not sure.
In any case Brian came back with even worse. Here I present all the PERSONAL CHARACTER SMEARS which make up the bulk of his "argument" against me ---- against ME PERSONALLY --- not against my arguments.
....this is how you are living your life ....
... you are unable to open your mind up to the possibility of accepting anything that contradicts your view of the Bible.
...you will never learn even the basics of any of these subjects because to learn the basics requires someone to be open minded and to look at the evidence before they come to a conclusion. You will never grasp ... because you will not study objectively, you will not read a wide range of materials....
You should be ashamed of yourself ....
...what you are doing is basically the same as a ten year old kid ....
...require you to look objectively at the texts, and you are incapable of doing so ....
...Faith, you are over 200 years behind the times....
...Faith worships her bible before she worships Jesus the Christ. .... I cannot imagine a weaker faith in God than you have....
...Well, Faith, in the real world, not the fairytale land that you live in ....
No doubt you will have some crazy excuse for that one,....
Then you say that people fold up in the face of science, fold up from what, from living life inside a fairy story? ....
you faith in the bible means to ignore the evidence, stick your fingers in your ears and shout la-la-la, ...despite the fact that you haven’t got a clue about the majority of the related subjects! It is breathtakingly, astoundingly ignorant.....
But Faith, you spend your whole life LOOKING for empirical proof of the Bible events! ....
.....Its not that you WON’T admit you are wrong, you are incapable of admitting it, you are so self deluded that your brain’s self protection system kicks in and rejects any negative information. ....
....you will accept any garbage that maintains this position, it doesn’t matter how puerile the information is, if it keeps this inerrant faade up, you will grasp it with both hands ....You have read and absorbed so much misinformation that you probably would require some serious psychiatric help to deprogram your self-delusion.
....They aren’t betraying Christ, they are using the brain that Christ gave them. You may be surprised to know but you are the one betraying Christ, have you any idea how many people that you scare away from Christianity when they read some of the stuff you post? If anyone should be worried it should be the literalists.....
....It is putting up with constant humiliation that has psychologically altered you. The constant humiliation has made you unreceptive to anything that contradicts your belief. See how well it fits in with my post, these psychiatrists are clever people, we can see their findings unfolding before our eyes here.....
....It doesn’t take faith to believe in the Flood, it takes stupidity, because your lot never just say ...you have faith in nonsense like water canopies, or comets full of water, or some other mindless drivel!....
....Yes, back to the drawing board to see what embarrassing claptrap you can make up, any nonsense will do as long as it solves an immediate problem. Thank the Lord that all Christians are not literalists, you would drag us back to where you did before, the Dark Ages.....
This is nothing but verbal violence, sheer abuse.
This deserves a LONG suspension in my humble opinion, permanent in the case of the RELIGION forums.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-22-2005 10:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Brian, posted 06-20-2005 2:09 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 8:20 AM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 221 of 304 (218821)
06-22-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
06-22-2005 8:55 PM


Re: Ouch!
That is another personal offense you should be suspended for.
For telling you that I don't know your age? I don't know your age. Have you ever told me your age? No, you haven't.
You're clutching at straws, anything to shirk real debate. If you keep making up these "offenses" and slandering me with them, I'm gonna take it personally soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 8:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 10:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 222 of 304 (218826)
06-22-2005 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by crashfrog
06-22-2005 9:37 PM


Re: Ouch!
You are adding offense to offense. Apologize for your rude personal comments, treat me with respect if you want to talk to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by crashfrog, posted 06-22-2005 9:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2005 6:52 AM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 223 of 304 (218836)
06-22-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
06-22-2005 7:55 PM


Re: Worshipping the wrong thing.
jar writes:
I would like to expand on the beliefs of C.S. Lewis. My signature is taken from Lewis, his Narnia series. In the final book he addresses a subject that seems to come up quite often here, "Who can be saved". In it he clearly says that profession of belief is NOT the determining factor and that even Non-Believers, even folk actively working for some other God, will be saved.
Faith writes:
Reference please. Book title, page number etc. Thank you.
In my copy of The Last Battle the relevant section starts on page 155. I’ve typed it out and it will be quoted below.
For those not familiar with the work of CS Lewis he is probably the most influential Christian thinker and writer of the modern era. He was a close friend of another strong Christian JRR Tolkien. They used to argue about the best way to approach fictional Christian writing. Tolkien believed that it was best just to write a story and weave in Christian values such as truth and courage. Lewis however believed in writing stories metaphorically. As a result we got The Lord of the Rings from Tolkien and the Narnia series from Lewis.
The following is taken from The Last Battle which is the 7th and last book in the series. The story is being told by Emeth who was a warrior for Tash. Tash in this story represents the evil one and Aslan the Lion represents Christ throughout the whole series.
CS Lewis writes:
So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that i have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him.
But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.
Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites., I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-22-2005 07:39 PM
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-22-2005 07:42 PM
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-22-2005 09:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 7:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 11:11 PM GDR has replied
 Message 226 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 11:43 PM GDR has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 224 of 304 (218840)
06-22-2005 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by GDR
06-22-2005 10:38 PM


Re: Worshipping the wrong thing.
Thank you very much for posting that.
I guess I have to realize that Lewis was even farther from orthodoxy than I had thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by GDR, posted 06-22-2005 10:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 06-22-2005 11:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 227 by GDR, posted 06-23-2005 12:11 AM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 225 of 304 (218842)
06-22-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Faith
06-22-2005 11:11 PM


Re: Worshipping the wrong thing.
ROTFLMAO
GOD listens to what you do, not what you say.
This message has been edited by jar, 06-22-2005 10:25 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 06-22-2005 11:11 PM Faith has not replied

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